More Propaganda
 

Sorry, but I can't resist:

Elsewhere AC Player has posted a link to a news story about this; here's another one. Who wants to defend these overtly racist laws, then?


Israel imposes "racist" marriage law

Palestinian-Israeli couples will be forced to leave or live apart
By Justin Huggler in Jerusalem
01 August 2003


Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. The move was denounced by human rights organisations as racist, undemocratic and discriminatory.

Under the new law, rushed through yesterday, Palestinians alone will be excluded from obtaining citizenship or residency. Anyone else who marries an Israeli will be entitled to Israeli citizenship.

Now Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch sent a joint letter to the Knesset, Israel's parliament, urging members to reject the bill. "The draft law barring family reunification for Palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens is profoundly discriminatory," Amnesty said in a statement. "A law permitting such blatant racial discrimination, on grounds of ethnicity or nationality, would clearly violate international human rights law and treaties which Israel has ratified and pledged to uphold."

B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organisation, joined in the criticism of the law. Yael Stein, a spokesman, said: "This is a racist law that decides who can live here according to racist criteria."

Some Israelis believe they are sitting on a demographic time bomb, with an Israeli Arab community, already 20 per cent of the population, growing faster than the Jewish population.

The discrimination is not only against Palestinians, according to human rights groups, but against Israel's own 1.2 million citizens of Palestinian origin as well. The overwhelming majority of Israelis who marry Palestinians are the so-called Israeli Arabs - Palestinians who live in Israel and have Israeli citizenship.

"This bill blatantly discriminates against Israelis of Palestinian origin and their Palestinian spouses," said Hanny Megally of Human Rights Watch. "It's scandalous that the Government has presented this bill, and it's shocking that the Knesset is rushing it through."

The government pushed the vote through at speed, even agreeing to consider it a vote of confidence to get it through. It was passed by 53 votes to 25, with one abstention.

Gideon Ezra, a cabinet minister, said: "This law comes to address a security issue. Since September 2000 we have seen a significant connection, in terror attacks, between Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza and Israeli Arabs."

Since 1993, more than 100,000 Palestinians have become Israeli citizens through marriage, Mr Ezra said. But B'Tselem pointed out that only 20 of those 100,000 have been involved in suicide bombings or other militant attacks. Human rights groups said security concerns could not justify the new law, which amounts to collective punishment. Noam Hoffstater, another spokesman for B'Tselem, said: "Those who voted for the bill and those who support it are making a very cynical use of security arguments to justify it, even though they used no data. This in fact was a cover for the real reason, which is the racist reason, the demographic reason."

Many on Israel's right fear that it will be impossible to maintain Israel's identity as an officially Jewish state if the Arab sector becomes too large.

"Today I lost hope," Sa'id abu Muammar, an Israeli Arab, told Reuters news agency. He has been hiding his Palestinian wife from the police since their marriage a year ago. "This is what we've been doing and this is probably what we will have to continue to do."

Re: More Propaganda
 

u realize ok to own non jewish slaves there, although law passed 5 years ago officially outlawing it.

big sex slave stuff.

but theyre gods chosen, those russians, so u r blatantly anti-semetic and in some countries could be imprisoned. here soon.

shame on u

Re: More Propaganda
 

Since 1993, more than 100,000 Palestinians have become Israeli citizens through marriage, Mr Ezra said. But B'Tselem pointed out that only 20 of those 100,000 have been involved in suicide bombings or other militant attacks.

I wonder how many were killed or injured by those 20?

It is unfortunate that the effect of this law will be to make life more difficult for many innocent people. However, this law would be completely unnecessary if not for the suicide bombings. Every country has a right to self-defense. Every country has the right to set its own immigration policies.

Re: More Propaganda
 

"However, this law would be completely unnecessary if not for the suicide bombings"

How is that the fault of the other 99,980 spouses? You might as well say that the US should ban all Saudi spouses because of 9/11 (I have a suspicion someone is going to take me up on this suggestion [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]). Besides, it's perfectly obvious that the suicide bombers are able to cross in from the West Bank and Gaza ayway.

Re: More Propaganda
 

I note that President Bush, when Sharon was with him, told the press that he is committed to the preservation of Israel as a Jewish State. Israel defines itself as a Jewish State, and this, to me, is the heart of the problem.

I can move to Israel at any time and have all the rights and responsibilities of citizenship. My daughter-in-law cannot. The idea of defining one as a first- or second-class citizen based upon one's religion is problemmatical to say the least. The idea that the Jews are a people, rather than a religious affiliation, is at the heart of the problem.

Re: More Propaganda
 

Agreed that it is part of the heart of the problem. However it is also rather understandable given that they are surrounded by a sea of Arabs who would love to crush them. So in many ways it is a sort of survival mechanism given their situation.

Now contrast this with nations such as Saudi Arabia where not only is there a state religion, but other religions are essentially taboo (or at least second or third-class), legally speaking. The many Islamic states have no such excuse as the Israelis for insisting on an a Jewish or Islamic state; they are not similarly threatened; they simply believe Islam is right for religion and government and the world. And they believe leaving Islam (the crime of apostasy) merits the death penalty.

So the Israelis have practical reasons for their legal bigotry (survival in a sea of mortal enemies), but the bigotry of the Islamic states is primarily due to backwardness and a totalitarian mindset.

Who Does Defend Them?
 

The implication here is that since the USA supports Israel and considers Israel an ally, the USA supports every law and every action that Israel has and undertakes and therefore the USA is guilty of this practice as well. That's BS and is meaningless at best and gross disinformation at worst. As a thought experiment consider if the USA suddenly cut off all aid to Israel and even went so far as to sever diplomatic relations. Would that really improve the situation in Israel and/or the Middle East? Or perhaps you're advocating an invasion of Israel by the USA to set things right. What is your point anyway? That Israel displays an ugly, racist attitude towards the Palestinians? Ok but that's probalby about the 200th time or so you've said it. What should be done to rectify it?

Re: More Propaganda
 

"The idea that the Jews are a people, rather than a religious affiliation, is at the heart of the problem."

Andy I agree with your sentiment and your point but don't you think it's not just Israel that holds this idea? Given the events of this century (let alone throughout history), the overt bigotry and hatred against those practicing the Jewish faith, it's somewhat understandable that some might band together and believe that they're a people. Those that avow the hatred and bigotry treat them as a people and not as being affiliated with a religion. In my mind that's a part of being the "heart of the proble" as well.

Re: More Propaganda
 

It is the heart of the problem.

I think I mentioned in an earlier thread that, IMO, any state based on a religious foundation (incl arab states, Israel, Pakistan, some trends in India, etc) is problematic. In fact the founding fathers of the US recognized this and codified it into the constitution. Separation of church and state is a good thing for a truly free society. Various attempts in this country to bring down that wall is dangerous for the freedoms in the US.

A possible consequence of the thinking of the founding fathers could and perhaps should be that the use of our US$ in support of any of these religious states should not be permitted. We are in essence supporting a religion with federal monies.

Neither Israel nor Saudi Arabia nor Iran nor... pick a theocracy is a free country. Some are more democratic than others, to wit: Israel and Iran but not free societies as seen by our founding fathers. JMHO.

Re: More Propaganda
 

Israel is a far freer country than Iraq or Iran, and is much more democratic than Iran as well.

Israel is not nearly the religious theocracy that many Arab states are. In fact Israel is not a theocracy at all.

Re: More Propaganda
 

This law is probably a good idea. Isreal was created for the larger purpose of creating a homeland for Jews. They should be able to kick out the non-Jews. I also think the creation of Isreal was a good idea given the barbaric tendencies found in Europe.

I disagree with is Isreal's policy of enforcing squalid living conditions for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. I think that as a security policy the Isreali stance is self defeating and inefficient.

It\'s the fault of the terrorists
 

It's all the fault of the Palestinians and the terrorists and their anti-semitic supporters on this forum!

..Anything less than the above would not be satisfactory to the unconditional supporters of Israel that post here, so why not give it to them as a gift? For the weekend, say.

Re: More Propaganda
 

Andy, both you and Tom bring up good points. Of course, the problem starts with Jewish Law itself. It's not just an "idea" that Jews are seen (and see themselves) as a people not a religion. The definition of who is a Jew has nothing to do with belief. So in that sense it is unavoidable that when the religion is only transferred by birth mother or a quick Orthodox conversion at the Bris of a reform convert's son, or the rare adult Orthodox conversion, it is natural to view Jews as a people and not a religion. And given the increase of intermarriage and the decline of strict observance of the Commandments, more ambiguous situations will arise. I think eventually the world population will be a huge collection of interracial and inter-marriage (religion wise) mutts. It will be a nicer place.

Amen [nt]
 

.

Re: More Propaganda
 

"Every country has the right to set its own immigration policies."

Except, according to Israel, any future Palestinian state.

Re: Who Does Defend Them?
 

Tom,
Slow down a second there. The question was directed at posters here (eg B-Man, M), not the entire US of A. There's an on-going discussion of how the Israeli state behaves on this forum, about who is at fault and who the onus to shift their position the conflict is on. None of the "implications" you mention are actually inherent in what I wrote, least of all the US invading Israel. You're just making this stuff up.


"What is your point anyway? That Israel displays an ugly, racist attitude towards the Palestinians?"

Yes.

"Ok but that's probalby about the 200th time or so you've said it."

Sorry. Just introducing further evidence that Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is as much about racism and ethnic cleansing as it is about countering terrorism.

"What should be done to rectify it? "

Er - they could stop? Certainly the US and the West in general could put more pressure on Israel. By the way, I heard last night at a talk that the US gives more aid to Israel than it does to the entire continent of Africa, not even counting military aid. I've not corroborated this -interesting if true.

Re: Who Does Defend Them?
 

Let's not forget that Palestinians (and Arabs in general) tend to hold far more racist attitudes than do Israelis.

If the Palestinians were militarily stronger than the Israelis, the Palestinians would long ago have wiped out the Israelis. Yet Israel shows relative restraint while holding the power, even while under perpetual attack.

So yes, Israel could be a lot nicer. But consider also that it's rather hard to be nice when you are perpetually being attacked by people who want to push you into the sea.

Israel represents just slightly over 1/1,000 of the total Arab land mass. But to the Arabs, it's a big, big deal.

If you want to attack bigotry, nicky, why don't you attack the most widespread bigoted beliefs on Earth: those of many Arab Muslims. When the Imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca refers to the Jews as "sons of pigs and monkeys" it's not a fringe belief. His sentiments are echoed, too, by countless other Islamic religious leaders and lay persons who view the Jews about the way Hitler viewed them. And Rafsanjani or Khameini publicly said that an Iranian nuclear weapon would be able to solve the problem of Israel once and for all.

Israeli bigotry towards Palestinians is unfortunate, and could and should be lessened, though it is part due to self-defense. Arab Muslim bigotry towards Jews is both stronger and more widespread.

Re: Who Does Defend Them?
 

"Er - they could stop?"

Specifically what?

"Certainly the US and the West in general could put more pressure on Israel."

You need to be a lot more specific this is vague at best.

"I heard last night at a talk that the US gives more aid to Israel than it does to the entire continent of Africa, not even counting military aid. I've not corroborated this -interesting if true."

Well I'm sure it's true actually. Still what would happen in the Middle East if the USA abandoned Israel? Personally I don't think Israel would feel very restrained to use more force (like possibly nukes) if they were abandoned. Also, is this a call for more humanitarian aid to Africa in the form of food? Last time news of this sort of aid brought about a post accusing the USA of destroying Africa's agricultural export industry. BTW Bush has gone on record as stating that if the ECU will drop it's subsidizing of European agriculture the USA will drop it's subsidies. Methinks the genetically engineered produce concerns are baloney. Chirac is the intransigent one. We'll see what happens in Cancun.

Re: Genetically Modified Crops
 

A crop which is genetically modified so as to be naturally resistant to insects is probably a lot safer to eat than similar crops heavily sprayed with pesticides.

Also I suspect that European opposition to such crops has far more to do with economic concerns than with health reasons.

Er, Another Thought Nicky................
 

...........Palestinians could stop the suicide bombings and guerilla attacks. And, until there is a peaceful resolution (which probably can't happen as long as the ole dribbler terrorist Ara-scumbag-fat is alive), then I say good for the Israeli gov't. They can always change the law back once peace has been achieved. Exactly what is wrong with self-preservation? And why, Nicky, the constant posting of Israeli items without any balance as to the multitude of arab disgressions? Oh I know why. It's Bush's fault. Plus, cyber-sniper cyrus will kick you out of his club if you dare post anything anti-arab

Re: Genetically Modified Crops
 

The reason why African countries are not keen on getting GM foods is because it kills their local agriculture.

1. The foods are heavily subsidized by the US government.
2. The GM food feed need to be purchased every year from the manufacturers, rather than reuse of seed from the fields.

There is no knowing whether they are good for us. Remember we were told by the pesticide companies that was safe, DDT manufacturers that was safe, by the Thalidomide people that was safe, by the cigarette people, by the... .you get the idea. Hard to trust a salesman of GM foods when he says that this safe.

Bush (as are most presidents) is a salesman doing the bidding of his corporate masters.

Huh???????........
 

...well at least you got in some sexual content. Whew!!!! For a minute I thought this was a brad imposter.

Maybe it's the ritalin is kicking in, but I'm having a little disconnect with your thought process - not necessarily a bad thing mind you, but a tad of a head scratcher nonetheless.

Re: Who Does Defend Them?
 

"Still what would happen in the Middle East if the USA abandoned Israel? "

I'm not suggesting it should, but that a relatively rich, tiny country(population 7 million) should get more aid than the poorest 1 billion people in the world strikes me as repugnant. To answer your question on specifics, the US could make portions of its aid conditional on the dismantling of settlements, phased withdrwal from the territories etc.

"Also, is this a call for more humanitarian aid to Africa in the form of food? Last time news of this sort of aid brought about a post accusing the USA of destroying Africa's agricultural export industry. "

Because they should be sending cash, not food. I made that very clear. Cash would stimulate local economies, food exports destroy them.

"BTW Bush has gone on record as stating that if the ECU will drop it's subsidizing of European agriculture the USA will drop it's subsidies. Methinks the genetically engineered produce concerns are baloney. Chirac is the intransigent one. We'll see what happens in Cancun. "

Both sides are equally intransigient - agreed that the EU has a dreadful record on subsidies - hopefully Bush is being sincere and both sides will phase them out. I can't see either side doing it given the power of the agricultural lobbies on both sides of the Atlantic. I am no fan of Chirac either and agree that he is a major villain in the whole affair. Regarding the GM issue, European public opinion is vastly against it. I remember when that was supposed to count for something. But talking about baloney, what about Bush's cynical inistence that GM could end world hunger. This is complete crap and Bush knows it. Furthermore GM crops would make farmers totally dependent on expensive products from rich agrochemical multinationals. They can't make ends meet at the moment, how having to buy new seeds every year thanks to terminator genes would improve their lot, I really don't know.

Re: Who Does Defend Them?
 

"Israel represents just slightly over 1/1,000 of the total Arab land mass. But to the Arabs, it's a big, big deal."

It's a big deal to the people whose homes were taken off them. And it's a big deal to people living under 30 years of occupation.

Re: Who Does Defend Them?
 

Anti-semitic bigotry in the arab world is indeed widespread and repugnant. There is a difference though in that those countries are not oppressing local Jewish populations (because there aren't any; why that's the case is another argument, but that is nevertheless something that happened in the past rather than something that is continuing right now), whereas the Israelis are oppressing millions of Arabs.

You are right though that the Israeli repression of the Palestinians gets a disproportinate amount of condemnation from all quarters, including me. A lot of pro-Israelis suggest it's because of antisemitism; obviously I don't think that's true in general, but it's interesting to ask why. I think it's partly that Israel is supposed to be one of us, a free Western democracy, and indeed is that for its Jewish citizens, but is also a brutal, racist military oppressor for millions of people. Partly it's that it's relatively close (almost in Europe), partly that it's such a close ally of the West, partly it's that the conflict there reverberates world-wide (sometimes threatening to set off WW3), partly it's that it's a continuation of the history of WWII which affected the whole world, partly because Israel is seen as US puppet... etc. Mainly though I suspect it's because for decades there's been so much pro-Israeli bias and coverage in the West, that people feel the need to counter it. I mean, I think that what Russia is doing in Chechnya is even worse than what the Israelis get up to in the occupied territories, but how much does anyone really want to disagree with me on that? M might because of the Islamic connection, but I suspect most other people just aren't interested - whereas in the case of Israel people do care and the official line has always been on the Israeli side.

Re: Who Does Defend Them?
 

Good post.

Re: Genetically Modified Crops
 

The GM foods have been tested. We know that ingesting pesticides is bad for us. There is no evidence whatsoever, as far as I know, that GM foods are bad for us. So it seems those who fear them more than they fear persticide-sprayed foods, are fearing more greatly what is very likely the safer thing.

Re: Genetically Modified Crops
 

All the other "safe" products I mentioned had also been tested. Sorry, I prefer my food with the original genes and preferably organic -- but cant always get the organic kind -- specially with my itinerant life style.

Re: Who Does Defend Them?
 

nickyg: [ QUOTE ]
To answer your question on specifics, the US could make portions of its aid conditional on the dismantling of settlements, phased withdrwal from the territories etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

How's this for an alternate conditional proposal, nicky, and one that I think makes more sense overall: Israel makes incremental withdrawals on the condition that attacks cease for predetermined periods of time, in effect trading some lands for peace. If attacks flare up again, Israel takes back the land.

It is ludicrous for Israel to just withdraw while continuing to face attacks from closer vantage points, and U.S. policy should take this into account. Mere lip service by the Palestinians (as in the past) is not sufficient; attacks must cease.

Your idea of making U.S. aid conditional is OK provided it includes the proviso that Israeli withdrawals are similarly conditional on the cessation of Palestinian attacks for substantial lengths of time.

Re: Genetically Modified Crops
 

Genetics are modified continually through nature anyway. I think most people who fear GM foods more than pesticide-sprayed foods are presuming too much based on way too little information. Organically grown foods may be best of all but good luck feeding the world with them.

Mulberry Bush, again
 

"Palestinians (and Arabs in general) tend to hold far more racist attitudes than do Israelis."

For the last decades or so, yes. The roots of their racism (rather of their deep-seated hatred) is Israel coming on to the Middle East and taking away from the Palestinians the land they occupied for quite a large number of centuries. But before the 20th century, I challenge you to show me in the Middle East any anti-semitism remotely approaching the intensity of anti-semitism exhibited by Catholic and Orthodox (Russian) Christians against Jews, for the last two millenia.

"Israel shows relative restraint while holding the power, even while under perpetual attack."

Wiping out militarily all of the Palestinians, armed and civilian alike, is not (shall we say) politically expedient? As things stand?

Not for lack of trying though.

"Israel represents just slightly over 1/1,000 of the total Arab land mass. But to the Arabs, it's a big, big deal."

Again this "argument"... I remember Netanyahu on CNN ten years ago using his thumb to demonstrate on the map "how small" Israel is, compared to "the Arab land".

(What is this supposed to mean, anyway? Is this a schoolyard playing cards trade? A horse trade?? Jeez. Don't worry about the World Trade Center, it was only 1/1000th of New York "land mass"??)

Nuremberg Law
 

Sure it's an out-and-out racist law. The kind of law that would have us up in arms if it came from anywhere else in the western world.

And that's the point. The Arab countries are backwards and undemocratic compared to Israel. But Israel pretends to be the bastion of democracy in the Middle East. The embodiment of western ideals.

In reality, it has become a country with racist laws, nationalist politics, and exclusionary objectives. Acountry where ethnic cleansing is considered acceptable policy. A land where race is destiny ! Building a Wall that separates the land and claiming it's for "security reasons"? In the 21st century, building a Wall, only ten years after the Berlin Wall came crushing down?? Yep, a fucking Wall, and we are reduced to hanging on to Dubya's words, waiting to hear whether the President will call it "a problem" (=tough on Israel!) or "an issue" (=soft). What a colossal tragicomedy.

We should be thankful that not all Israelis have descended as low as the criminals who now run their country. B'tselem and the mutinous soldiers and officers and all the Peace Now activists and the various dissenters are the true Zionists.

Cyrus: How dare they keep the bombers out!
 

Building a Wall that separates the land and claiming it's for "security reasons"? In the 21st century, building a Wall, only ten years after the Berlin Wall came crushing down?? Yep, a [censored] Wall, and we are reduced to hanging on to Dubya's words, waiting to hear whether the President will call it "a problem" (=tough on Israel!) or "an issue" (=soft). What a colossal tragicomedy.

I guess it shouldn't surprise me that even the most basic (and non-violent!) measures taken to prevent suicide bombings are condemned by the anti-semites and racists. According to people like you and Alger, there is nothing Israel can do to defend itself against terrorists. In your view, the suicide bombers should have free reign to kill and disfigure as many as they wish.

Why don't you say the real reason this wall is such a problem--that it will reduce suicide bombings and thus the leverage (real or perceived) of the terrorists? If the Palestinians didn't want a wall, they should have thought of that before starting their murderous rampage, which has only paused with the most recent 3-month truce. You know damn well the terrorists will start their dirty work again at what they think is the most opportune moment (a la the Yom Kippur War; imagine if Israel ever started a war against its neighbors on an Arab holiday? You and Alger would still be screaming about it! But terrorists are free to do whatever they want, whenever they want and there is nothing Israel is permitted to do about it, in Cyrus' perfect world).

Also, please do not compare this to the Berlin Wall. That comparison is absurd (unless you can point out to me that there were waves of suicide bombers infiltrating West Germany from East Germany prior to The Wall being built). Israel has a moral right to secure its people against terrorism; the wall isn't hurting anyone, but it is going to help keep innocent people safe from homicide bombers.

Your invoking of the Holocaust would be offensive if it was coming from any sane or unbiased person.

Re: Mulberry Bush, again
 

M: [ QUOTE ]
Palestinians (and Arabs in general) tend to hold far more racist attitudes than do Israelis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cyrus: [ QUOTE ]
For the last decades or so, yes. The roots of their racism (rather of their deep-seated hatred) is Israel coming on to the Middle East and taking away from the Palestinians the land they occupied for quite a large number of centuries. But before the 20th century, I challenge you to show me in the Middle East any anti-semitism remotely approaching the intensity of anti-semitism exhibited by Catholic and Orthodox (Russian) Christians against Jews, for the last two millenia.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't trying to compare Arab prejudice against Jews vs. other groups' prejudice against Jews; I was comparing Israeli prejudice against Arabs vs. Arab prejudice against Jews. And the latter is much greater in depth and scope.

One another note: Cyrus why do you continually take the side of the Arabs, who are blessed with far greater natural resources than the Jews but have managed to do far less with them. Adherence to antiquated ideologies is a curse not a blessing, and the troubles of the Arabs are almost entirely thus self-created.

The Arabs should be perhaps the richest people in the world today due to their oil wealth and vast lands, but their extremely narrow economies and tyrannical political systems actually destroy wealth rather than create it.

Sorry but I have trouble siding with stupidity on the part of either individuals or large groups.

Also, with the huge natural resources and space the Arabs possess, they could easily have resettled the Palestinians and helped them get a good start. However the Arab leaders have long preferred to use the Palestinians as pawns in their campaign of hatred against the Jews, because directing the anger of the Arab masses outward at a convenient target serves to keep this anger from being focused inwardly at the corrupt and backwards regimes.

Those who dislike the Jews for their successes, rather than being envious, should instead attempt to emulate the methods which led them to success: to wit, an emphasis on study, hard work and frugality. Likewise too have many Asian peoples raised themselves out of hard circumstances to become quite successful. But the liberal-thinking of today seems to be to try to achieve equality by dragging everyone down to near-mediocrity, rather than by encouraging excellence in everybody.

By the way every time I have listened to an interview with Netanyahu he has struck me as making perfect sense--quite a contrast to the rantings and delusive ideas typically put forth by many in the Arab world, and quite a contrast too to the ideas espoused by Palestinian militia and Palestinian "spiritual leaders."

Reason is an essential ingedient to long-term peace. The less Reason someone possesses, the more likely they may be to become irrationally violent. It will probably be a long time before the ugly face of irrational violence subsides in the Middle East.

Re: More Propaganda
 

I fully understand the sentiments behind the Zionist movement and am well aware of both the events of this century and the course of Jewish history. But the idea of a Jewish state inevitably leads to problems. Jewish history is not all horrors; the view that Jews have always been persecuted and inevitably will be, is not true. After all, the city with the largest Jewish population in the world is not in Israel (it is New York).

The practice of Zionism, as well as it's theory, is what led to the heart of the problem right at the beginning. Allying itself with British imperialism, the Zionists colonized a land with people already living on it; those people objected right from the beginning. Like many people who had been trod upon, the Zionists acted the part of their former oppressors in how they treated the natives. This was a "natural" thing for European people at that time: to treat the natives as people of lesser import.

And since the beginning, both peoples have learned to hate each other.

As I have posted here before, I don't know if a solution exists. Neither people have shown themselves worthy of the land that many consider holy.

GDR lives!
 

I am not surprised that there are people defending monstrosities such as the Israeli Wall. There were people, in and out of the German Democratic Republic that were telling ya, with a straight face, that the Berlin Wall was for the protection of the Easterners!

Yes, I know. The Wall is supposed "to protect Israel from terrorists". Well, if that had actually any substance, there would be perhaps some room for discussing its possible merits. In reality, Walls cannot deter or stop terrorists. What the Wall does actually is to further divide the Palestinians. And grab more of that fertile, yummy land of the West Bank in view of the upcoming creation of an independent "Palestinian State". (Hah.)

"According to people like you and Alger, there is nothing Israel can do to defend itself against terrorists."

Patently absurd. You obviously don't have the slightest idea about my position on this. (Suffice to say that I much prefer Israel's methods of selective and clean assassinations, which are not always so, to the gigantism of American wholesale invasions.)

"Your invoking of the Holocaust would be offensive if it was coming from any sane or unbiased person."

Gee, thanks.

Next time I "invoke" the Holocaust, I'll be sure to ask permission from you and the doctors.

--Cyrus

(By the way, it's not me who "invokes" the Holocaust. I'm not the one offering excuses here. You are! Look up the word's meaning.)

Netanyahu makes perfect sense
 

"Why do you continually take the side of the Arabs, who are blessed with far greater natural resources than the Jews but have managed to do far less with them?"

I didn't know I was supposed to automatically take the side of the most efficient and less blessed with matural resources people. Strange. I was under the impression that this discussion was about people and human decency, you know, morality. You are saying this is about economics?

And ...minerals?

"Adherence to antiquated ideologies is a curse not a blessing, and the troubles of the Arabs are almost entirely thus self-created."

The fact that the people of India were centuries behind the British in matters of civilisation does not make the British any less brutal occupiers or imperialists. Why are you even considering the level of civilisation of a people when you think how that people should be treated? You can't really be that kind of person. Are you?

"Every time I have listened to an interview with Netanyahu he has struck me as making perfect sense."

In the latest Israeli elections, Bibi managed the impossible : he came on as the even more extreme Right Wing candidate than Sharon! The butcher of Sabra and Shatila thus managed to appear as some sort of a "centrist", "moderate" figure. And won more handily.

I would call it adding insult to injury, but there were no injuries when Sharon, as a young commando, was attacking Palestinian towns. Only dead.

Re: Netanyahu makes perfect sense
 

I've gotten a bit off-track here but let's remember we were earlier comparing relative levels of prejudice between Jews/Arabs. So anyway... I wasn't saying you should automatically take the side of the Jews--the more civilized and advanced culture--but I was asking why you always seem to take the side of the Arabs over the Jews.

Also, I view the problems in recent years as being more the fault of the Palestinians than the Israelis.




Cyrus: [ QUOTE ]
In the latest Israeli elections, Bibi managed the impossible : he came on as the even more extreme Right Wing candidate than Sharon! The butcher of Sabra and Shatila thus managed to appear as some sort of a "centrist", "moderate" figure. And won more handily.


[/ QUOTE ]

But compared to Palestinian and Arab leaders, Netanyahu would look like a moderate. Compared to the head Imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Netanyahu would be a moderate. And compared to any highly placed Palestrinian official, Netanyahu would be a relative moderate as well.

It's sort of like calling Falwell and Robertson extremists because they are more right-wing than...... --until you realize that their Islamic counterparts issued a fatwa sentencing Falwell to death for the crime of blasphemy.

So yes, I do think the level of culture and civilization does have something to do with the entire discussion. And by the way what do you think about Arafat having had suspected Palestinian Israel-sympathizers mutilated and killed with no trial.

So if the Palestinian Authority can't stop Hamas et al from their MORONIC, despicable attacks--and it appears they can't--Israel will eventually be forced to take out all those terrorist leaders. Maybe the USA should just divert some Special Forces teams as soon as we finish with Saddam and Tikrit and help them do it straightway. More good riddance to bad rubbish.

Re: Huh???????........
 

original post -
[ QUOTE ]
Elsewhere AC Player has posted a link to a news story about this; here's another one. Who wants to defend these overtly racist laws, then?


[/ QUOTE ]

my response -
[ QUOTE ]

u realize ok to own non jewish slaves there, although law passed 5 years ago officially outlawing it.

big sex slave stuff.

but theyre gods chosen, those russians, so u r blatantly anti-semetic and in some countries could be imprisoned. here soon.

shame on u


[/ QUOTE ]

ok fleshed out it is -

you realize that in israel it was totally legal for jews to own non-jewish slaves up until about 5 years ago when a big outcry got a law on the books to officially prohibit it, although it is still tolerated.

mostly it consists of sex slave traffic, (desperate)women from other (poor) countries lured there in search of work, although kidnappings have been reported. (dyncorp (in bosnia) admittedly runs/ran a sex slave ring where 200k women were kidnapped/pimped with some sent to other countries)

sarcasm = ON;

but theyre gods chosen people, the jews are, even though most israelis are really russian emigrants (with their concomitant ideals of freedom) , so u r blatantly anti-semitic and in some countries could be imprisoned. hate speech which is really thought crime is catching on in the US and will undoubtably be here soon.

shame on you for even suggesting any jew could do anything wrong. lets hope we get real freedom here in america so we can imprison you for your offense.

sarcasm = OFF;
// note anti-semitic speech is punishable by imprisonment in many countries today

Re: Huh???????........
 

brad if I convert to Judism do I get my choice of sex slaves or must I settle for sloppy 2nds?