Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Hello everyone.

I have been playing for about 6 months now and have taken poker like a major in college. That is, I've read all the suggested reading out there and have used this as my "edge" when I sit down at a table.

I started out in $3-$6 but found that it is too hard to showdown the winner against multiple LAPs at a LAG.

I tried $9-$18 and found that to be a much better game for my style. I can say that I can walk away from the $9-18 sessions a winner 70% of the time.

This past weekend I tried out $15-$30 and did well. I picked up on a couple of tricky players and some of their tactics. The table I was at was pretty loose vs. what I was expecting.

The reason I ask this question as to whether or not I am ready is the fact that one of my good friends, who is a high-limit ($80-$160) player told me that until I can consistently beat the low-limit game, I have no business in the mid- to high-limit games. I don't know if he was saying this to protect me, but I feel that I cannot protect my starting hands as well in low-limit.

Example: Pocket Js in low-limit have been worthless to me, but in mid-limit, they held up 12 out of the 15 times I had them. Ditto with AA.

Thoughts?

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

No, you are not ready for mid-limit.

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Listen to your friend.

15 examples of any hand, regardless of results, is not enough of a sample size to drive any conclusions from.

If you have the bankroll to play in bigger games or no attachment to the money, then the decision to play them is up to you.

I think you should concentrate on beating the low limit games over a prolonged period of time before moving up to mid and high limit games. But play where you are comfortable, just don't allow your short term results to dictate your limit of play as they are meaningless.

The quality of players in low limit vs mid limit is not very different from what I have experienced approaching 75K hands. (still not even remotely a good enough sample)

If you are beating 9/18 70% of the time, hang there for awhile and keep beating it...sounds like a profitable game for you. If you can maintain that over a prolonged period of time and many hands...build up your bankroll and re-evaluate moving up.

The poker games aren't going anywhere, your 6 months in...take your time and develop your game...no need to rush.

That's my .02, good luck! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Here's my story, LRAO, for what it's worth.

I started playing HE in 1998, when I was just starting out with a small law firm in SW Missouri. I had played lots of home games, and 7 card stud in casinos, up to about 5-10.

I started playing hold em on my road trips to Tunica, MS. I started out playing 10-20, and never really looked back.

While I didn't have a great deal of HE experience when I started, I read all the books and had a lot of valuable home game experience playing with some pretty tough competition.

I had a small bankroll built up from the home games I played in, so I decided to start right out at 10-20. I figured, if im going to learn this game I need to play against reasonably decent competition -- I felt that with my background in poker there was no reason to start at less than 10-20. I knew that the majority of the players would be better than me, although I knew I would learn fast. I was surprised to find that many of the middle limit players were not hotshot players, just had more money than lower limit players.

My advice is this: it sounds like you have a decent understanding of the basic strategy and some poker theory. I don't see why you shouldnt continue playing in the middle limits you've stepped up to. Always remember: keep reading, watch players better than you, and ask questions. Oh yeah, dont get over your head. There is no shame in stepping down a limit when the cards aren't running your way -- which will, unfortunately, happen -- especially online.

While I like to joke around on this site, it is a tremendous source of information: especially when you review a thread with differences of opinions from top players: not only does it shed light on the "correct" way to play a hand, it also indicates on how other people think and reason at a poker table (whether you feel they are 'right' or wrong').

Best Wishes, I hope you find the game as rewarding as I have and make lots of money (as long as it's not from me).

TSP

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

hey TSP,

this is the first post from you i actually liked [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Kenny

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

"I started out in $3-$6 but found that it is too hard to showdown the winner against multiple LAPs at a LAG."

Your friend is right. You aren't ready to play the mid-limit games. The statement above shows a lack of conceptual understanding.

JJ winning 12 out of 15 hands in any game is just running good. And if you've only had JJ fifteen times playing in these higher limits, I suggest you are, indeed, running good.

-Michael

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

You are definitely NOT ready. This is based on what you have written in this post as well was your QTs hand in the other thread.

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

GO back and play 3-6 till you understadn how to beat it.

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Mr. Davis,

Thanks for your reply. Could you please elaborate?

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mr. Davis,

Thanks for your reply. Could you please elaborate?

[/ QUOTE ]

im not Mr. Davis, but there is A LOT here you need to bone up on before reaching the mid limit games. the reference to JJ is one clear one...in low limit and mid limit it doesn't matter. what matters is the TYPE of game you're in ... a loose game is a loose game regardless of the stakes. JJ doesn't play well against 3-5 people for 2 or more bets. when you go to the river there be prepared to lose. you should be playing it like a drawing pair or a big pair depending on the # of people you're likely to be involved with on the flop. if there's a raise you can make it 3 to try to keep the pot to a few players. or just call and invite everyone and try to flop a set or have an overpair.

in terms of you're understanding of the concepts necessary to play mid limit, you're just not there right now. reading books doesn't necessarily DO anything for you. you need to apply the concepts correctly and from your QTs post its clear you don't even have the preflop and flop concepts down yet. easiest fold ever w/o some insane read on the MP raiser there. thats a losing play to call. also, if you remember the books you claim to have read, HPFAP specifically states that you need a BETTER starting hand to play after a raise than to raise yourself. further, you should rarely be cold calling a raise w/ nobody in between. reraise or fold a significant majority of the time. fold QTs without a read EVERy time.

Mr. Davis also referenced sample sizes for hands. 15 hands is about 3 orders of magnitude shy of being a viable sample size...ok, well maybe thats an exageration but it DEFINATELY needs another 2 orders (1500 hands) more than you have there. these are also concepts you clearly do not understand and simply need to study more and how and when to apply them.

best of luck to you on your studying and playing. this forum is here to help you and you can use it as such (but start with the lower limits)

-Barron

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Dcifr's comments are better than mine, but here's the deal:

The loose, every-hand-to-showdown low limit games to which you refer are the easiest games in the world to beat in the long term. This game, frankly, is quite common. If you're playing $9-18 at the Commerce, well, those games are often like a $3-6 showdown fest. If you cannot pound these games, probably for two big bets an hour, you are not ready to move up.

Secondly, as to the small sample size, you need to understand that winning 12 out of 15 hands is a totally irrelevant statistic. And, to be quite frank, if I ever won 12 out 15 hands with JJ, my suspicion would be that I'm in a pretty bad game.

I think the frustration of getting beat time and time again with good hands bothers you too much. You have to understand that you don't need to have 50% winning percentages with a certain hand to make it highly profitable. This means that you will frequently log losing sessions and will occasionally suffer utter disasters, no matter how well you play.

Keep reading these board, put in some hours at low limits, and reread the books. Coldcalling a raise with QTs is suicide to your bankroll in the mid/high limits, though at the low limits, you can probably get away with this play and not get killed.

And please don't call me Mr. And listen to Dcifr and the others, they have been around a long time, play in games way higher than me, and have a much better ability to explain things conceptually.

-Michael

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Loose players have a hard time winning against other loose players with the occasional tight player thrown in the mix. Loose players, playing against somewhat tighter players will sometimes enjoy an immediate advantage ititially as they are able to move people off of pots, etc. more often, but it doesn't take long for most players (specially at mid-limites) to realize you are playing too loose and/or too aggresive, resulting in having players call you down or 3 bet isolations against you more often.

You don't seem to have a grasp on loose games versus tight games and how to change your play accordingly. Not to mention long term vs. short term.

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Hi LRAO,

You have received some valuable advice so far, especially from DcfrThs and Michael Davis. It's not so much the denomination of the chips that you should be concerned about, but the type of games in which you will face. You will find that even in middle limit games, you will have games that play similar to a typical 3/6 game. Such as someone calling you down with a backdoor sh*t straight and the kind. Until you are confident that you are able to handle that and games that are really tough, risking more money is not the answer. Your so-called edge that you have now, will be non-existent when you move to middle-limits.

Two things will happen when you move up in limits: 1)you can make more money 2)you can lose more money 3)your opponents will be more skilled. The combination of 2 and 3 is reason enough that you should be able to beat a 3/6 game on a regular basis before moving on. If this is just an occasional weekend hobbie for you, then by all means give 15/30 a shot. But if you are going to do this regularly (like most of us poker junkies on 2+2), then you should use 3/6 as education. How can you expect to do well in college, when you aren't able to pass high school?

Your preflop skills that you learn in your books will be important in your low-limit games. Your postflop skills are ESSENTIAL in middle-limit games, and that takes months/years of experience. Play well and good luck.

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the input. Looking forward to more discussions. Unless I get booted to the beginner's section. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Don't let ego prevent you from visiting the beginner / micro-limit / small-stakes forumes. There is great advice there.

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have been playing for about 6 months now and have taken poker like a major in college.

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on reading your QT post, I bet you didn't do very well in college.

[ QUOTE ]
That is, I've read all the suggested reading out there and have used this as my "edge" when I sit down at a table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good one.

[ QUOTE ]
I started out in $3-$6 but found that it is too hard to showdown the winner against multiple LAPs at a LAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very hard to beat these games if you are bad at poker.

[ QUOTE ]
I tried $9-$18 and found that to be a much better game for my style. I can say that I can walk away from the $9-18 sessions a winner 70% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Badass.

[ QUOTE ]
This past weekend I tried out $15-$30 and did well. I picked up on a couple of tricky players and some of their tactics.

[/ QUOTE ]

Badass.

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I ask this question as to whether or not I am ready is the fact that one of my good friends, who is a high-limit ($80-$160) player told me that until I can consistently beat the low-limit game, I have no business in the mid- to high-limit games.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are lucky to have a friend who knows what he's talking about. Forget about random folks giving you advice here. Listen to your friend.

[ QUOTE ]
Example: Pocket Js in low-limit have been worthless to me, but in mid-limit, they held up 12 out of the 15 times I had them. Ditto with AA.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you do have a good point there. Please tell me your userid at any of the poker sites. We can play some high-limit heads-up matches. In those games, your AA will hold up more than anywhere else, since AA wins the highest percentage of times when played heads-up (it wins the lowest percentage of times when facing 9 opponents). Also, you are able to pick up on how tricky players play, so between all these skills I think you will dominate heads-up high-limit play. But El Diablo enjoys a challenge, so we should definitely play. Olé!!!

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

I would like to play El Diablo heads up.

For play money. I'm serious too. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

ML4L beware, mas spanglish:

quando el diablo quiere ser el diablo, nadie esta seguro...

no need to poke fun at the poster, pero si quieres ser el diablo, hay que decir cosas asi...pues te entiendo...but seriously, even though i've heard "el diablo" is spanish for "the diablo" there's always a fine line

cross it at your own leisure [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-Barron

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

No, you're not ready for midlimit, as this QTs hand goes to show. You are not thinking about the game correctly enough to even beat a low limit game. Beat those games first.

Don't mean to be rude, just straight up. It's people like you that make the 15 game on party so good.

Re: Am I ready for mid-limit?
 

Thanks. I will continue to work on my game.