Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Third hand at table and no solid reads although the table seems fairly loose.

Party 2/4.

Preflop: I am Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
MP3 open limps, CO limps, I limp, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, I....

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

fold...will be back for comments if you want...

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Fold without hesitation since you'll be outdrawn a lot even when you are ahead on the flop. There are a decent number of good turn cards for you, but a lot of them bring you into unfortunate reverse implied odds territory. If one of those damn sixes was a spade, oh the possibilities...

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

I assume this is 2/4?? Do you at least have stats on the players like V$IP? You are getting 8-1 from the pot.. so the pot is $16.

The real problem is that there are few very good cards for the turn. You could get the backdoor straight, but a 4 or an 8 could give someone else the straight. Any overcard could give someone a pair.

Plus, if someone raises the turn, you'll be forced to fold even if they don't have the six. If you raise the flop, you aren't going to force anyone out.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Yeah I don't want to start a "fold" bandwagon but every way you can win is tainted.

Another 5 gives someone with a 6 a better full house. A 7 puts three to a straight out there (and you are still behind a 6). Your backdoor straights will often be chopped. Even if nobody has a 6, there's a decent chance someone has a better 5 or better pocket pair.

Finally, you will often lose a lot of money when you make 2nd best hands and will win little when you make the best hand.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Tough one without knowing how loose or tricky these players are. You also don't mention what game this is.
In an earlier position I would be raising to see where I'm at for sure. I think this is a raise or fold situation. What card on the turn would you want to see. I think I'm leaning toward a fold.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

i like a fold here. you have a decent chance to have the best hand. but if you don't you will have a hard time to draw out and the opposition has tons of outs if you should be ahead. no chance to protect the hand.
there is no card that really helps you on the turn and any(!) card (despite the 2 sixes) is a scare card. the reversed implied outs are terrible.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Fold. The bet + two calls after all-limp PF action reeks of a slowplayed 6. And those times no one has a 6, you are going to have to dodge as many as 6 possible overcards.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

I called on the flop. I think it's close but correct. I'll ellaborate later.

Party 2/4.

Preflop: I am Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
MP3 open limps, CO limps, I limp, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, I call, SB folds.

Turn: (9 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, I....

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

bet...
you have to protect your hand in the rare case that it is good...you have to call a raise too since you now have a gutshot + full house draw (tainted)...betting and getting raised is nowhere near as bad as giving a free card here...

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

While you should have folded the flop, a series of decisions led us to this, and now you should bet. If the big blind raises like I'm almost certain he will, fold if there's a caller between you. I probably fold on the river as well.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

I call on the flop with the intention of re-evaluating on the turn.

Turn checked to you, easy easy bet. Especially since you picked up a backdoor flush draw. (J/K [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call on the flop with the intention of re-evaluating on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? The pot is not huge, no reason to continue on the flop. I'd like to hear your reasoning. Besides straight draws that contain a 5 and a 6, there are no other draws available. I don't like this flop at all.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Haven't read other responses, cause Jason always updates the hand and makes me have results oriented thinking! I am calling this flop, with the plan of seeing where I am on the turn. I have a pair (and backdoor straight draw) on a board where people are going to call with overcards, so there is a good chance I am ahead. The pot is decent, so I am staying in at this point.

I can't raise the flop because it won't protect my hand, and this hand has poor reverse implied odds. Further, a raise here will make the hand significantly harder to play on the turn - if it got checked to you it could be because someone is planning a checkraise. But if you flat call, and the action goes bet fold fold, then I could find a raise there.

So call.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

To everyone who said fold this flop: If you are going to fold on this board with that action, why are you calling 57s in the first place? And don't say the hand isn't worth a call preflop, cause Clarkmeister will bust some heads.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Haven't read other responses, cause Jason always updates the hand and makes me have results oriented thinking! I am calling this flop, with the plan of seeing where I am on the turn. I have a pair (and backdoor straight draw) on a board where people are going to call with overcards, so there is a good chance I am ahead. The pot is decent, so I am staying in at this point.

I can't raise the flop because it won't protect my hand, and this hand has poor reverse implied odds. Further, a raise here will make the hand significantly harder to play on the turn - if it got checked to you it could be because someone is planning a checkraise. But if you flat call, and the action goes bet fold fold, then I could find a raise there.

So call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beautiful; you saved me the trouble of having to elaborate later as this is exactly what I was thinking on the flop. And it's nice to Justin A and you supporting the call now since the first few responses and the conversations I had over AIM about the hand all said fold the flop.

Also, why are people folding on a flop like this after limping with 57s?

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Haven't read other responses, cause Jason always updates the hand and makes me have results oriented thinking! I am calling this flop, with the plan of seeing where I am on the turn. I have a pair (and backdoor straight draw) on a board where people are going to call with overcards, so there is a good chance I am ahead. The pot is decent, so I am staying in at this point.

I can't raise the flop because it won't protect my hand, and this hand has poor reverse implied odds. Further, a raise here will make the hand significantly harder to play on the turn - if it got checked to you it could be because someone is planning a checkraise. But if you flat call, and the action goes bet fold fold, then I could find a raise there.

So call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beautiful; you saved me the trouble of having to elaborate later as this is exactly what I was thinking on the flop. And it's nice to Justin A and you supporting the call now since the first few responses and the conversations I had over AIM about the hand all said fold the flop.

Also, why are people folding on a flop like this after limping with 57s?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't really reasoning to call at all. Vague phrases like "the pot is decent" and "I call with the intention of seeing where I am on the turn" are not sufficient IMO. Why do you call this flop?

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, why are people folding on a flop like this after limping with 57s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't limp on the button with 57s unless I have 3 limpers already in the pot. Am I giving up a marginal opportunity? Perhaps, but the pot size doesn't warrant the risk. I should have mentioned that in my previous post, sorry... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Let me clarify:

Pot is decent - I am getting 8 to 1 on a call here, which means I don't have to win the pot particularly often for a call to be +ev.

"Intention of seeing the turn and reevaluating" - The action in front of me on the turn (and sb's action on flop) will give a much better indication as to how likely our hand is ahead. A flop call (or even bet) by any of these players here could be any sorts of hands: overcards, draw, or a big hand waiting to raise the turn. Pocket pairs aren't as likely here, as most players will raise this flop with their overpair to protect. Not to mention there was no preflop raising.

Further, your position on the turn significaly reduces your reverse implied odds, which are the only real reason to fold this hand on the flop. If you hit a 7 on the turn, but it is raised in front of you, you can still fold. It is very hard for your hand to be trapped here, as you have all that extra information (thanks position!). The only way you lose extra bets is if you improve to a straight draw, but this is a +ev situation in the first place.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Just because you hit a pair and there are cards around your cards doesn't mean this is a good flop for you.

And yes, I would play 75s from LP. This isn't the kind of flop + action I'm looking for when I do it though.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Haven't read other responses, cause Jason always updates the hand and makes me have results oriented thinking! I am calling this flop, with the plan of seeing where I am on the turn. I have a pair (and backdoor straight draw) on a board where people are going to call with overcards, so there is a good chance I am ahead. The pot is decent, so I am staying in at this point.

I can't raise the flop because it won't protect my hand, and this hand has poor reverse implied odds. Further, a raise here will make the hand significantly harder to play on the turn - if it got checked to you it could be because someone is planning a checkraise. But if you flat call, and the action goes bet fold fold, then I could find a raise there.

So call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Beautiful; you saved me the trouble of having to elaborate later as this is exactly what I was thinking on the flop. And it's nice to Justin A and you supporting the call now since the first few responses and the conversations I had over AIM about the hand all said fold the flop.

Also, why are people folding on a flop like this after limping with 57s?

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't really reasoning to call at all. Vague phrases like "the pot is decent" and "I call with the intention of seeing where I am on the turn" are not sufficient IMO. Why do you call this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting 8:1 on a call. I don't have to be good that often for this call to be correct. On the turn, since I have good position, I can make a correct decision based on the action on the turn and keep myself from getting trapped, even if I hit a bigger hand.

Edit: jgorham gave a better explanation.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

If you bet (and even you cant check here [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), I like how you've played this hand so far

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you bet (and even you cant check here [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), I like how you've played this hand so far

[/ QUOTE ]

He better damn well bet this turn if he called that flop...

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, why are people folding on a flop like this after limping with 57s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't limp on the button with 57s unless I have 3 limpers already in the pot. Am I giving up a marginal opportunity? Perhaps, but the pot size doesn't warrant the risk. I should have mentioned that in my previous post, sorry... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.... I've been going back reading over some old threads Jason T just told me about such as LINK and LINK , I am surprised to see the comments about 2 limpers on the button with a small 1 gap suited connector. Generally I have agreed with MLH's recomendation of only playing this hand preflop with 3 limpers. I can't say I am totally convinced, but I will adjust my game to see to incorporate these hands preflop to see where it takes me. Thanks for the heads up Jason....

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Of course I bet the turn. But after all the "fold" responses to the flop, I was questioning my play in this hand.

Party 2/4.

Preflop: I am Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
MP3 open limps, CO limps, I limp, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, I call, SB folds.

Turn: (9 SB = 4.5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, I bet, BB calls, MP3 calls, CO raises, I call, BB folds, MP3 folds.

River: (10.5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, I....

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, why are people folding on a flop like this after limping with 57s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't limp on the button with 57s unless I have 3 limpers already in the pot. Am I giving up a marginal opportunity? Perhaps, but the pot size doesn't warrant the risk. I should have mentioned that in my previous post, sorry... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.... I've been going back reading over some old threads Jason T just told me about such as LINK and LINK , I am surprised to see the comments about 2 limpers on the button with a small 1 gap suited connector. Generally I have agreed with MLH's recomendation of only playing this hand preflop with 3 limpers. I can't say I am totally convinced, but I will adjust my game to see to incorporate these hands preflop to see where it takes me. Thanks for the heads up Jason....

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

cf. also this post from Entity.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

This is quite odd. You're check-raised on the turn by the CO with only you left to act. If CO knows you're a TAG, he may make this play thinking you may fold immediately since he thinks he's representing a 6. A 6 better not be check-raising the turn from that position, that would be retarded, so I don't know what the hell is going on.

You raise the river and he folded?

Edit: To clarify, I think folding is the best option by a wide margin. However, raising seems to be a somewhat valid option in my opinion. I definitely don't call.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course I bet the turn. But after all the "fold" responses to the flop, I was questioning my play in this hand.

Party 2/4.

Preflop: I am Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
MP3 open limps, CO limps, I limp, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, I call, SB folds.

Turn: (9 SB = 4.5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, I bet, BB calls, MP3 calls, CO raises, I call, BB folds, MP3 folds.

River: (10.5 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, I....

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Before someone comments, I like the turn call. Its very marginal, but the hero is breaking even thanks to his implied odds.

I fold the river.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

I fold this river. If I was going to call it, however (probably based on a read of CO), I would 3bet the turn and take a free river.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]


I'm getting 8:1 on a call. I don't have to be good that often for this call to be correct. On the turn, since I have good position, I can make a correct decision based on the action on the turn and keep myself from getting trapped, even if I hit a bigger hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, first of all you are not really getting 8:1. If the showdown occurred after the flop then this is an easy call. While your pot odds are 8:1, your effective odds are much worse.

Maybe I'm just not very good postflop, but I am not sure our position helps us that much. Say the turn is the Td. BB bets, one call and one fold, to you closing the action. Now what do we do? Okay, we call. River is 9c, BB bets, other player folds, we call. So we end up getting 7:2.5 on our call down. Will our hand be good often enough for this to show a profit? Possibly just slightly given the atrocius play. What about overcalling the river, though? If BB bets and our MP calls, do we overcall? We are likely beat, but will we see AJ in BBs hand and 33 in MPs hand often enough to warrant an overcall? Probably not, but I dunno.

I think the flop call might be right, but only because I assume the opponents are so bad that they might be calling with A2 here. It seems very marginal, and I don't think folding is all that bad. And with certain reads, I might fold instead.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Ok seriously, what's the consensus on the flop call? We have to sides of the story here, so many of us have major leaks in our games. I think the flop is a clear fold. Others think its an easy call. Some of us are making our "small" mistake many, many times...

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

It's so close that is probably doesn't matter. But I think it's a good hand to discuss, because it helps to clarify a lot of good poker concepts. I think this example is a good illustration of (1) the value of position, (2) effective odds.

This is probably a hand that weaker players whose postflop skills are still a significant work in progress are probably better off folding. For expert players, a call is probably marginal profitable. (Or so I'd speculate, being anything but an expert myself.)

Well that's my $0.02.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

I usually fold the flop, but I can't argue with the facts: you are getting 8:1 with position.

I just don't think that's enough for me with all the overcallers, all the cards that will wreck you on the turn, and the fact that a 7 or 5 is less likely to be good for you than if the board weren't paired.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, why are people folding on a flop like this after limping with 57s?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't limp on the button with 57s unless I have 3 limpers already in the pot. Am I giving up a marginal opportunity? Perhaps, but the pot size doesn't warrant the risk. I should have mentioned that in my previous post, sorry... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.... I've been going back reading over some old threads Jason T just told me about such as LINK and LINK , I am surprised to see the comments about 2 limpers on the button with a small 1 gap suited connector. Generally I have agreed with MLH's recomendation of only playing this hand preflop with 3 limpers. I can't say I am totally convinced, but I will adjust my game to see to incorporate these hands preflop to see where it takes me. Thanks for the heads up Jason....

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are glorious links you have there. I love them.

Two things.
1.Why does everyone want to fold the flop??????
2.Has anyone ever set up a thread/website with all their favorite links of 2+2 threads?

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Pre-flop: I think this is an easy call. It's going to put you in a lot of marginal situations, but that's okay. You've got position and Party 2/4 isn't a hotbed of tricky or aggressive players.

Flop: I call, and want the following parlay: a baby or a draw to come on the turn, and weak action to me.

Turn: we've got a winner... a baby AND a crappy draw, with no action to you. Bet it, and don't be terribly surprised if you get raised.

Turn: CO raised... you've got to call here, CO could have read your bet and the flock of calls as a position bet + a bunch of random unpaired cards. You're not going to win all the time here, but you'll win enough.

River: heads-up action. you're good here more than 9% of the time. Call and see which it is.

Man, I hate advocating a line that consists of 5 calls in a row, but in that game, I think that's the line I'd take.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]

River: heads-up action. you're good here more than 9% of the time. Call and see which it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you figure? You think CO is pure bluffing here that often? I think not.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
1.Why does everyone want to fold the flop??????


[/ QUOTE ]
There are way too many things that have to go your way for you to end up winning the pot. Even when this does happen, you won't be winning much. You do run the risk of losing quite a bit though if you have/make a 2nd best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
2.Has anyone ever set up a thread/website with all their favorite links of 2+2 threads?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guido's site if you havne't seen it.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1.Why does everyone want to fold the flop??????


[/ QUOTE ]
There are way too many things that have to go your way for you to end up winning the pot. Even when this does happen, you won't be winning much. You do run the risk of losing quite a bit though if you have/make a 2nd best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is clearly dependant on several factors. Most importantly, how do u hold your own postflop. Lets just say for the sake of example, you have the postflop powers of clarkmeister/GoT/JoeTall...etc. I think its a call. Granted, I doubt many are at that level, but even being semi-decent I think its a call.

River...wow. Tricky. Got Check/raised and he bets the river...are we good here 8%? I probably fold. I think the rest of the hand looks pretty awesome.

PS. Yeah saw the Guido site....which reminds me, I still need to read that Shania thread. Just checking to see if there are other collections/sites out there I missed.

Re: Daily Hand Post: play along in a marginal situation
 

Yes, I think the CO is bluffing with overcards or an underpair at least that often. The turn flat-call of his raise indicates weakness, so he might figure that you'll fold if you don't improve.

I can't say that I've made a detailed study of opponent bluffs at 2/4, in this particular marginal situation, but I think I'm right.

That being said, if your plan is to fold if you don't hit your straight, there's no point in calling the turn raise.