Making the transition to 10/20
 

I'm looking for any tips people might have for making the transition to 10/20.

1. In general, does the increased agression mean that i should be going to showdown more or less? I do realize that good reads here become more important.

2. Are my opponents going to be more varied in playstyle? I have played a bit at a small site, which has mostly casino traffic. I found that players seemed to play either quite lagish (30/20 style) or very weak tight.

3. Should i be attempting to steal more or less vs. typical opponents? I assume people defend the BB more. Is this offset by slightly higher steal sucess because better players fold the SB more?

4. Should i be defending the SB and BB more or less than in 5/10? I was thinking the slightly better odds i get are somewhat offset by the skill of the players making use of their position on me.

5. Will my opponents be more or less likely to fold to check-raises, stop and go, etc? What level are most of these guys thinking on?

6. Is variance bigger or smaller at 10/20? I was quite comfortable (and successfull) making the jump from 3/6 to 5/10 with only 300 BB. Should i be looking to start 10/20 with a significantly bigger bank roll?

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

6. 300BB seriously is too low if you dont plan on just taking a shot.
Variance is considerably worse than on 5/10. Lower winrate, more aggressive players..

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

how about taking my first stab with $8000 (400 BB) and a very good rakeback deal (35-45%)?

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

I just take shots there from time to time my main game is teh 5/10 6 max. The biggest problem for me moving up is the game is super swingy compared to the 5/10. The other day I started off losing 113BB but finished the day up 20 or so. I'd say atleast 500BB to make it your regular game and if you think you might not be a winner in that game then drop back down to 5/10.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

My first 20K 10/20 at party were at best breakeven. I have never played with even a 500BB BR. I'd take 2 buy-ins and just check it out. Nothing will give you as much information as that. Play tight, don't get crazy defending your blinds with crap thinking that everyone is always stealing. Most importantly, try to locate other TAG's right away and avoid them.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

only play one or two tables and play fri. and sat. nights.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

To be honest, your questions make me feel u got a lot to think about. No matter what limit.

You play 5/10 6max now and wants to play 10/20 6max? Well, betsize double and the average player will be a bit more aggressive and there will be more really good players.

If your question was: "I have problems with 30/20 guys, I try to play like this blah blah blah but always feel they rip me and there seems to be a lot of them at 10/20. What sould I do?" If your question was this I would understand.

But all your questions are about "general" and "typical" and "people" and "my opponents".

The difference between a decent and a good pokerplayer is that the good pokerplayer plays the player. Not say you are bad at getting reads and acting on them. But if u are good at this it really shouldnt be so difficult to see how 10/20 works.

I am not sure if there is any player at 10/20 that make a good profit without playing each player indivually. I guess there could be some pretty aggressive that makes without good reads and some really tight that also do it. But not to many.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]

The difference between a decent and a good pokerplayer is that the good pokerplayer plays the player. Not say you are bad at getting reads and acting on them. But if u are good at this it really shouldnt be so difficult to see how 10/20 works.

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That's simply wrong.

Game texture is huge, regardless of individual reads. A smart thinking TAG will play differently in the party 10/20 than he will in the party 5/10. Why? Because his opponents are playing differently.

He's aware of the overall texture of the game, and is playing accordingly. You need to also be aware of the overall texture of the game and the proper adjustments you should be making so you can play properly against this opponent.

You also need to have a "readless" read. That is -- if you know nothing about your opponent, how do you play against him? It's certainly going to be different than how you would play against an unknown at .5/1 or 5/10.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

That sounds more reasonable. I think I took my first shot with 450BB, ran bad, played 5/10 when the 10/20 tables were not great, continued to run bad but always came back and tried and tried..
That was last month, this month i am running at 3.3BB/100.. talk about running hot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

On my website John has gambling problems I talk about both my transition to $5/10 and $10/20 6-max. Hopefully there is some information there that you may find interesting. Also if you only have 300 BB, I strongly advise against moving up unless you don't mind a high probability of going broke.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The difference between a decent and a good pokerplayer is that the good pokerplayer plays the player. Not say you are bad at getting reads and acting on them. But if u are good at this it really shouldnt be so difficult to see how 10/20 works.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's simply wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong?

Is it wrong that the difference between a good and a decent player is that the good one is better at playing the player? You cant mean that?

Is it wrong that a player that is good at playing against different styles pretty easily will understand how to play different players at any limit, including 10/20? You cant mean that?

I have coached a lot of players that try to move up from 5/10 to 10/20. When I do the handcomments I almost never refer to "game texture". I almost never refer to a "typical 10/20 player". The players that are capable of winning at 10/20 will understand the overall texture pretty quickly. (u should understand if u just open up a number of 10/20 table and look at each of them for 10 minutes)

If u sit down at a normal 10/20 player u will have the following lineup:

Player 1: 30/20/3
Player 2: 18/14/3
Player 3: 43/20/2
Player 4: 45/12/1.4
Player 5: 55/10/0.7

How do u play an unknown in this game? What is the "game texture" of this particular game? And how long should this "game texture" be important for you? And do u think the difference between a big winner and a breakeven that sit down to play at this table is that the first understand the game texture and the other doesnt?

The difference between the winner and the breakeven will not be in the first 20 hands u play when your HUD for some reason doesnt work like it should.

As I said in my post there is a difference between 5/10 and 10/20. But when players have problems with 10/20 its not because they dont understand the overall game texture. Its because u cant play certain players or cant get a read on the other players and adjust to it.

"Game textures" and "playing unknowns" was much more important when we didnt have stats on the others because it was so hard to get reads on 20 players at same time so we so often had to pretend they were "normal".

If u think that the problem with moving will be to understand the texture, well, then u still got a lot of pokerstudy infront of you. The problem with moving up is that there will be more TAGs and more good LAGs (and u will get the awful feeling that the good LAGs really are the one making most money), not that the "game texture" is different.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

Nice post, kiddo. Some great advice.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

ur moving to 10/20 already? wow...

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

1. In general, go to showdown more. More players will frequently be trying to push you off of hands.

2. 30/20 isn't really lag, more like a slightly laggy style of TAG. You are going to get your mix of TAGs, LAGs, tight-passives and loose-passives, but in general more TAGs (some of which will likely play better and be more aggro than the TAGs you see at 5/10), and LAGs (most you can identify by their 40-50/22-27/2-2.5 type stats). Try to get at a table with as many 50/5/.4 types, cherish these players at your table.

3. I tend to steal about the same in 10/20 as I did in 5/10, but as you get started out at 10/20 I'd lean towards the safe side and maybe steal a little bit less at first; if you steal how much you normally do or more, you will be put in some situations postflop that you might not be comfortable with, especially since you are new to 10/20 and the bet size has doubled.

4. You can probably defend BB and SB a bit more b/c of the slightly better odds you are getting, but I don't think it should be too much different. The skill of your opponents is one factor to take into consideration, but so is their average hand strength; they steal more on average than at 5/10 so you can defend with a little bit of a wider range.

5. No one really folds in this game. What I mean by that, is that no one really trusts each other and you will see your c/r's get called down relatively lightly and you will probably have to make some light calldowns against the right opponents.

6. Obviously $ variance is bigger, but so is BB variance, due to the higher level of aggression. Many very good players have had 200-300+ BB downswings in this game. 300 BB is ok for taking a shot, but if you want to make it your regular game, I'd probably need 800+ BB but I like to be overbankrolled. If you make a transition from like 3-4 tables of 5/10 to 3-4 tables of 10/20 on only 300BB, if you run a little bad from the start you won't be playing optimally and will be worrying about your bankroll. I'd take a shot and add in a table along with your regular 5/10 tables.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

i'm probably not ready yet. i'll never know unless i try. i am sure i'm better than the average 5/10 fool (not saying much). i thought i'd test the waters. but, i'll take the advice of others here and wait till i build up a bigger bank roll.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

thanks for the detailed response. most of the answers you gave me were what i expected and have seen in the little bit of in the few 10/20 games i've played.

one thing that i really didn't expect was that people just won't fold, as you say. i've seen guys 3 betting the flop, turn and river, then showing down ace high.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

cool site.

i'll take the advice and hold off on making the move till bankroll is a bit higher.

Re: Making the transition to 10/20
 

i think you misinterpreted the "general" nature of my post (pun intended). yes, i realize the art of good play is playing the players at a specific table. i was just trying to get a general feel for what's out there, not some homogenized gameplan that's universally applicable to the realm of 10/20.

it's kind of like taking a trip to a foreign coutry. once you arrive at your destination you will have to drive on specific roads or take a particular train to get from A to Z. before going, it might make sense to ask someone who's been there before whether you should first rent a car or just take the trains. and of course, once you've arrived you may do a mix of both.

perhaps i could just observe a few 10/20 tables at a site i'm thinking about playing at to get a feel for the game. perhaps i could just watch a movie that takes place in the foreign country i plan to visit... but how much does that tell me about being there "in person"?