Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

So I buy Mike’s new DVD special... You get 3 DVD’s and a "pamphlet" type lesson plan for $20.00. Not a bad deal, right? I watch the first DVD and in it, he says "Don’t raise with pocket aces from any position." He goes on to say why... "You don’t want to drive away your customers." wtf?

I say there are times to slow play your aces, like when a very aggressive bettor acts after you or when you get a BB that thinks "nobody limps into MY blind", or maybe when you’re on the button and it has folded around to you. I’m sure I could think of a few more instances where slow playing your pocket aces might be a good "deception", but come on Mike Caro.... Are you just wanting us at your table or what?

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

That's his early position play. Limp and reraise.
I don't like it myself, but he has 'taught' that
for about 15-20 years now. Still advertises it as
a 'new' way to play, lol.

For late position he still raises.

Also, it's part of a 'mixed strategy' so that
in theory people won't know what you have when
you limp.....something like that.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

This is correct. Playing aces in early position this way is part of an overall strategy that is all supposed to be used to properly balance and provide deception, not something to be taken individually without the rest. The overall strategies for various limits are given in table form in the back of his professional holdem report (out of print now) and in the back of his and Cappelletti's Poker at the Millenium book on holdem and omaha. I think that limp reraising with aces is acceptable on it's own in a very tight game with few mulitway pots where you don't fear a couple loose players immediately after you calling as well to induce even more calls. The risk of course is allowing the blinds to flop a hand with crap or someone calling with a dominated hand who would have folded but now out-flops you.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

Mike has forgot more poker than most of us know!

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I watch the first DVD and in it, he says "Don’t raise with pocket aces from any position."

[/ QUOTE ]
Is that an exact quote? After six limpers, he wouldn't raise on the button or out of the blinds?

Or is it possible that the "from any position" part is your own paraphrasing, and you may have misunderstood?

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

I watched it again to make sure before I replied again. He is, in fact, talking about early position... but he's not saying limp and re-raise. It’s very long, but here is a partial exact quote...

“Now people say ‘oh no! oh no! You have to raise with aces. Because, otherwise people are gonna come in and draw out on you.’ I say let em! Let em come in and draw out on me. Yes, I’ll take more losses. Of coarse with more people shooting at my pair of aces, I’ll lose more often. But I don’t care, because they’re getting the worst of it. If they’re getting the worst of it, then I like it. I’m getting the best of it, so I want to invite people in. Plus, if I raise, or maybe somebody else has already raised, and now I re-raise... What happens? I’ll chase people out of the pot. Do I want to chase weak hands out when I’m holding a pair of aces? I’m holding a pair of aces! You only get this 1 out of 221 hands! 221 hands, I get a pair of aces. I don’t get other big hands very often either. I don’t want to chase away my customers. I want them in the pot” - Mike Caro

There is more, but he never, NEVER, says to limp / re-raise. He is encouraging a multi way pot with everything he says in this DVD. Like I said... he has lost his mind! It makes me wonder about everything else he says now. I don’t want to take bad advise... And this is bad advise!

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[ QUOTE ]

“Now people say ‘oh no! oh no! You have to raise with aces. Because, otherwise people are gonna come in and draw out on you.’ I say let em! Let em come in and draw out on me. Yes, I’ll take more losses. Of coarse with more people shooting at my pair of aces, I’ll lose more often. But I don’t care, because they’re getting the worst of it. If they’re getting the worst of it, then I like it. I’m getting the best of it, so I want to invite people in.

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes much more sense than "never raise with aces", and it expresses a concept that most beginners would do well to learn; you never raise with the sole intent to 'chase people out' unless you are bluffing. A raise for value is nothing more than offering your opponents the worst of it when they have inferior hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, if I raise, or maybe somebody else has already raised, and now I re-raise... What happens? I’ll chase people out of the pot. Do I want to chase weak hands out when I’m holding a pair of aces? I’m holding a pair of aces! You only get this 1 out of 221 hands! 221 hands, I get a pair of aces. I don’t get other big hands very often either. I don’t want to chase away my customers. I want them in the pot” - Mike Caro

[/ QUOTE ]

Now this I think is a bit nutty. You have AA, you want to give other hands the opportunity to call with the worst of it. Not raising gives crap hands the opportunity to limp in getting the best of it (or worse, allows the big blind to check getting infinite odds to outdraw your aces!). If you want to squander your aces by giving people the right price to outdraw them, then that's fine. Personally, I think it's much better to offer them a bad price and if they outdraw you on this hand, then they outdraw you, and those are the breaks - but over the long run you'll get the money, which you won't if you never raise with your aces.

...and as far as the "you only get AA once out of every 221 hands!" bit, you only get 8-3 suited once out of every 331.5 hands - that doesnt mean you have to cherish it :P

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[Quote]
Now this I think is a bit nutty. You have AA, you want to give other hands the opportunity to call with the worst of it. Not raising gives crap hands the opportunity to limp in getting the best of it (or worse, allows the big blind to check getting infinite odds to outdraw your aces!). If you want to squander your aces by giving people the right price to outdraw them, then that's fine. Personally, I think it's much better to offer them a bad price and if they outdraw you on this hand, then they outdraw you, and those are the breaks - but over the long run you'll get the money, which you won't if you never raise with your aces.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mike's point is very valid, You get aces so rarely, that it really is a shame to win just the blinds with them.

BTW where did you buy all this Mike Caro stuff?

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mike's point is very valid, You get aces so rarely, that it really is a shame to win just the blinds with them.

BTW where did you buy all this Mike Caro stuff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps, but if it's a choice between "winning just the blinds with aces" and "giving a 9-4 offsuit in the big blind the best of it", i'll take the blinds, thank you very much. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

and as for where you get it, there's some kind of whammy-jammy Caro DVD package at caropokersecrets.com

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mike's point is very valid, You get aces so rarely, that it really is a shame to win just the blinds with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The expected value of raising, or atleast limp-reraising is way higher than limping. Off course you cherish it if everyone calls your raise as this a best case scenario (well, the real best case scenario is if everyone but the big blind calls at a full table, but it's close enough).

Intentionally giving people the opportunity to correcly limp is costing you money.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, if I raise, or maybe somebody else has already raised, and now I re-raise... What happens? I’ll chase people out of the pot. Do I want to chase weak hands out when I’m holding a pair of aces?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that Mike has been playing much poker in the last several years. In almost all of the modern low and middle limit games, the donkeys are going to cold-call your raises with virtually any hand that they would limp in with. Go ahead and punish them pre-flop and increase your EV.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now this I think is a bit nutty. You have AA, you want to give other hands the opportunity to call with the worst of it. Not raising gives crap hands the opportunity to limp in getting the best of it (or worse, allows the big blind to check getting infinite odds to outdraw your aces!).

[/ QUOTE ]

One should raise if it gets enough action; but only then. The blind(s) do not get infinite odds as they have bad implied odds until they fold anything worse than two pairs.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Plus, if I raise, or maybe somebody else has already raised, and now I re-raise... What happens? I’ll chase people out of the pot. Do I want to chase weak hands out when I’m holding a pair of aces?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that Mike has been playing much poker in the last several years. In almost all of the modern low and middle limit games, the donkeys are going to cold-call your raises with virtually any hand that they would limp in with. Go ahead and punish them pre-flop and increase your EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike is talking about NL, not limit hold'em in the video. I saw it, its total crap (as expected).

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

Look: What are you trying to do with AA

1. Win the blinds , and

2. Isolate your hand against one other lower paired hand
for the purpose of doubling up.

So raise.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

Mike is not big on raising/reraising preflop as a general concept.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[ QUOTE ]

That makes much more sense than "never raise with aces", and it expresses a concept that most beginners would do well to learn; you never raise with the sole intent to 'chase people out' unless you are bluffing. A raise for value is nothing more than offering your opponents the worst of it when they have inferior hands.


[/ QUOTE ]

That is an interesting point. On a NL loose table, if I don'r try to scare people out with big bets when I have, say, poket QQ, people will draw and win it much more.

If I do scare people out, I'll win less money more often.

Witch one is better?

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

I just saw the same video couple days ago.

I also observed his strange advice and couldn't follow its logic. Limp in with poket aces just seems wrong.

The video is targeted for novice, and his advice is especially dangerous for players who don't have background to criticise it.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

Mike is right. AA wins about 85% of the time against a single random hand. Against 9 random hands, it wins about 35% of the time.

You will make a lot more money beating 9 opponents 35% of the time than you will beating a single opponent 85% of the time.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

Dear chopchoi,

Thank you for not raising before the flop. The opportunity to outdraw your pocket aces for free is very much appreciated.

Sincerely,

The Big Blind

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dear chopchoi,

Thank you for not raising before the flop. The opportunity to outdraw your pocket aces for free is very much appreciated.

Sincerely,

The Big Blind

[/ QUOTE ]

Dear Big blind,

Your thanks is most appreciated. However, the cards are not on their backs yet so it is maybe a bit premature.

I did give you a free shot with your 8-3o in the big blind. You had infinite odds to outdraw me, and must have been very happy with the flop of 8-3-A.

When the turn came another 3 you must have been delighted, especially with some chump (me) who had limped under the gun and is now over-playing what looks like AK or AQ against you. What a mug, if the chump had raised with his AK you'd have passed. Now, it looks like you're going to get all his chips. He's just re-raised you on the turn, time to set him all-in...

Sincerely,

The chump who limped with AA UTG (and flopped top set)

Only joking.

Re: Mike Caro has lost his mind!
 

Dear chump,

Please stop getting cute with your aces; I'm dying here!

Sincerely,

Your Hourly Rate