when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

originally posted on MTT area, but after a good suggestion, posted here as well (as this is actually a STT...) Payout is 3rd $50, 2nd $150, 1st $300.

I caught a lot of crap for this one, but i think it was the optimal play. Down to four (2 pay, 3 gets money back) at live tourney. blinds 200-400. I had been playing selectively aggressive, picking blinds up slightly higher than the rest of the table, so that they wouldnt play back. The last pot I won with a continuation bet on a paired board. Table was fairly tight, but didnt want them to not give me credit for a hand, so i wasnt overdoing it.

BB was a good player. We had clashed early on, and i had made him back down. He had just doubled up and was 2nd in chips to me.

Hero, button, (7100) raises to 900 with 7d 4s.
Villain, BB, (4500) calls 500 more. (seems like a funny amount to raise, but this slightly above min raise was table standard, and was working. Besides, a larger raise would pot commit me before I knew what was what.)

Pot 2000.

Flop 7c 3h 3c.
BB checks, I bet 1000. BB min-CR's to 2000. Pot 5000. I have 5200 left. I put him on PP, down to 55, or two high clubs as most likely holdings.

A clear all in or fold here, right? Though I could legitimatelly be in really bad shape, I dont think hes giving me much credit for a hand with this flop, and may think A high is best. What do you guys do?

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

SNG strategy is quite different.

Plan A: Call and spike a 7 on the turn.

Plan B: Try to get to the river and then put him all-in. He's gonna need a really strong hand to call. Hope for scare cards along the way.

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

[ QUOTE ]
originally posted on MTT area, but after a good suggestion, posted here as well (as this is actually a STT...) Payout is 3rd $50, 2nd $150, 1st $300.

I caught a lot of crap for this one, but i think it was the optimal play. Down to four (2 pay, 3 gets money back) at live tourney. blinds 200-400. I had been playing selectively aggressive, picking blinds up slightly higher than the rest of the table, so that they wouldnt play back. The last pot I won with a continuation bet on a paired board. Table was fairly tight, but didnt want them to not give me credit for a hand, so i wasnt overdoing it.

BB was a good player. We had clashed early on, and i had made him back down. He had just doubled up and was 2nd in chips to me.

Hero, button, (7100) raises to 900 with 7d 4s.
Villain, BB, (4500) calls 500 more. (seems like a funny amount to raise, but this slightly above min raise was table standard, and was working. Besides, a larger raise would pot commit me before I knew what was what.)

Pot 2000.

Flop 7c 3h 3c.
BB checks, I bet 1000. BB min-CR's to 2000. Pot 5000. I have 5200 left. I put him on PP, down to 55, or two high clubs as most likely holdings.

A clear all in or fold here, right? Though I could legitimatelly be in really bad shape, I dont think hes giving me much credit for a hand with this flop, and may think A high is best. What do you guys do?

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I easily fold this pre-flop. Your preflop raise was terrible. He has 3 to 1 odds to call preflop.

Given he checks to you on the flop...

I would have pushed the flop. A bet of 1000 invites him to come over the top. A bet you probably have to call.

Given the check-raise situation, I think you have to push. This definitely depends on stack sizes of other two players.

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

[ QUOTE ]
SNG strategy is quite different.

Plan A: Call and spike a 7 on the turn.

Plan B: Try to get to the river and then put him all-in. He's gonna need a really strong hand to call. Hope for scare cards along the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you look at the pot size and relative remaining stack sizes?

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

I can see how stack size is important. they were both around 2k, not real threats... me and BB were playing for 1st, they were hanging on.

As for pot odds, this table had thrown them out. The blinds were so high that min raises were working. If a bet costs you almost 25% of your stack, and a minraise almost 50%, in the case of the BB, I dont view pot odds as nearly as important. thoughts?

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SNG strategy is quite different.

Plan A: Call and spike a 7 on the turn.

Plan B: Try to get to the river and then put him all-in. He's gonna need a really strong hand to call. Hope for scare cards along the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you look at the pot size and relative remaining stack sizes?

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. calling is moot. my big question is: are we giving the BB credit for a hand here or not? is the min raise strength or weakness?

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

[ QUOTE ]
This definitely depends on stack sizes of other two players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

there's not really enough information here, but a min-check-raise is typically strength.

i understand what you mean about the preflop play--- but min-raising with 74o is not good.

if it was working, then be prepared to let your hand go when someone calls... checking this flop would have been your best move-- in hindsight, obviously... i would rather fold this preflop than min-raise though. i don't even min-raise with my premium hands--- hands that i where i WANT someone to come along.

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

I agree completely. Under normal circumstances I never do this, take much the same line you do. But this was their convention (not guys i normally play with). They were respecting the 500 raise with a 400 BB. If a 500 chip bet gets the same respect that a 1000 chip bet gets, why send a man to do a boys work?

with that said, 74o is not the raising hand of choice, but is he giving me credit for hitting anything with that flop?

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

stack sizes of other two are around 2k each. they were hanging on.

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

Ok, I didn't think people were gonna take me seriously since this is the STT forum but I guess I will post for real.

The preflop raise IMO is good. Anyone who says it is horrible because he gives 3:1 odds to call does not understand the gap concept, the value of position, deception and most importantly bubble-play mentality. There are many instances in MTTs where it's right to fold even when getting great odds because of the chip situation, and for the BB this is one of them.

OP said slightly above min-raise was the table standard and WAS WORKING, so a button raise is +EV. If you disagree, GTFO of this thread.

On the flop, I think it's either between making a continuation bet or pushing. I personally would have pushed from the get-go but whatever. The way it played out, hero has a few options, depending on villain's plans:

-if villain plans to push the turn: Fold now.
-if villain can check the turn: Call the flop raise, push either the turn or river.

Like I said before, in the latter situation, villain is gonna need a really strong hand to call. That is all.

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

There have been quite a few posts out there saying that calling is an option here. Here is why I thought calling was not an option for me:
1) with 5000 in the pot, and villian left with only 2000 after his CR, the rest is going in on the turn.
2) How many good cards can fall on the turn, ie. will my hand ever get any stronger? Will I (likely) have an easier decision on the turn, or will I just be calling his turn all-in bc of pot odds.
3)If I'm gonna be forced to call an all in on the turn bc of pot odds, why not get the money in now, and force him to a decision on the 5% chance that he was completely bluffing.

With all of that said, I went all in, he called in a heartbeat (which i thought was bad...thought he had 88-99). He turns over 2c8c. I ran numbers in pokerstove, giving him credit for all PP's, and high club combos down to T9c, it was + EV for me to get all the money in. If i give him credit for flush draws this wacky, i have to get the money in, right?

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

[ QUOTE ]
With all of that said, I went all in, he called in a heartbeat (which i thought was bad...thought he had 88-99). He turns over 2c8c. I ran numbers in pokerstove, giving him credit for all PP's, and high club combos down to T9c, it was + EV for me to get all the money in. If i give him credit for flush draws this wacky, i have to get the money in, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Win or lose, your opponent made a TERRIBLE play.

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

uhhh... yeah, i was pretty confused. but its an interesting hand, i think, nonetheless. I was berated after the call for raising with that hand and then going all in with it, but i think its the correct play, and Pokerstove showed me that it was +EV on the range i was giving him, which was actually giving him too much credit. As i found that out after the fact, i was just glad that my gut/reasoning was on target.

He actually didnt catch a club, or 8, and was knocked out.

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

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The preflop raise IMO is good. Anyone who says it is horrible because he gives 3:1 odds to call does not understand the gap concept, the value of position, deception and most importantly bubble-play mentality. There are many instances in MTTs where it's right to fold even when getting great odds because of the chip situation, and for the BB this is one of them.

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The preflop raise is bad because of it's size. It's way too small, I'd make it 1500 here instead of 900, and folding is probably even better than that.

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

if I make it 1500 and the BB or SB moves in, i am pot committed with 74o. Folding is an option (probably best, altho id rather have 74o than A4o), certainly. Bet size has been addressed. 900 was table standard, blinds were high, it was an effective bet with any two, and i wanted to control the size of the pot. there is something to be said for bringing a knife to a knife fight. ie. why bet 1500 when 900 had been effective?

Re: when the right play looks like a donkey play
 

Well 900 is clearly not effective if he calls you with 82s, and you're insane to want 74o instead of A4o.