hand vs. Angelina
 

for those that dont know Angelina is an excellent shorthanded player. he (im still assuming this), is great and destoys the paradise 40 game. he is also one of those slovenian players (from ljubljana)

im playing with him 5 handed b/c there are 2 great fishies to my right.

the player in between us is too tight for the shorthanded game (and likely because he has Angelina to his left).

folded to me and i open 87ss on the button. angelina calls in the bb after the sb folds.

flop comes down Ad9s2d. angelina check and calls my bet.

turn is a great card for me, 6s. angelina bets out, i raise, he hesitates for a sec and calls my bet.

the river is a 7. angelina checks. your action?

Barron

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

Check behind hoping that pair of 7s with 8 kicker is good?

I really can't see a fold by any hand that beats you.

Also, I think this is why you raised the turn.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

I like a bet here...it may chase out a 9. Checking behind is a little weak. If he raises you, I think it's safe to fold, as you've been leading the action throughout.

But then, I suck at SH play. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

seems like a pretty clear check unless you two have been really going at it recently... then you may have a very thin value bet.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

a bet will not get angelina to lay down a better hand here, because he does call alot of river bets with very little.
i'd check because i would hate to be check raised here

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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i'd check because i would hate to be check raised here

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this is a stupid reason..
getting checkraised here is ok because youll NEVER have the best hand, and you wont have to show down your ugly hand that you were pounding with.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

i check this one. I can't see him laying down a 9.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

perhaps he/she is bisexual [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Have to follow through with this bluff. Showing this hand down is a give-up play.

Maybe you should go to Ljubljana and meet these players. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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i'd check because i would hate to be check raised here

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this is a stupid reason..
getting checkraised here is ok because youll NEVER have the best hand, and you wont have to show down your ugly hand that you were pounding with.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much short-handed poker have you played with good players? I haven't played a lot, but in my short experience, river bluffs are not unusual.

I like a check, but concede that I may not extract max value in short-handed games. If you do bet, it's for value.

-eric

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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perhaps he/she is bisexual [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Have to follow through with this bluff. Showing this hand down is a give-up play.

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Maybe so, but is it really a give-up play when the person is never folding an A let alone a 9

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

Check and hope you're good.

When you bet and get called, I think you are beat at least half the time. Sure Angeline could have a 2 or a 6, but an A or a 9 is more likely, given that Angelina didn't fold preflop.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

From what I've heard of angelina I don't think there's anyway he/she is folding an Ace or 9. I don't think a 9 would've played this way and an ace would not hesistate on the turn.

It could possibly be one of those plays where he knows if he checkraises the flop he may not get a fold from you while he feels there's a good chance you'll fold without an ace if he takes the check/call flop and donk turn line. When a good thinking player that knows I'm a thinking player takes the check/call flop and donk turn line it usually seems awfully suscipious more than it would a real hand on a board like this.

Although your not geting a better hand to fold, I wouldn't be surprised if he/she folded or showed something like 6d8d. The metagame aspect and the fact that you do not want to show this down incase he missed would be a good enough reason to bet this IMO.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

I would fire a bet here. I have played in this game a little, and I think this is a 910 type of hand alot. It all depends on your image though as I think she/he calls if you have gotten out of line at all.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

I think i check here, i dont see better hands folding or worse hands calling.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

This is a clear value check. Angelina is not calling that turn bet with the intention of folding for one bet on the river and he doesn't bet that turn on a draw either.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

Does everyone like the turn raise here?

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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Does everyone like the turn raise here?

[/ QUOTE ]yes.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

I do. Why would you not raise that turn card?

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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I do. Why would you not raise that turn card?

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Because i think that turn donk most likely comes from a made hand that's not folding, I wouldn't be thrilled about getting reraised, because all I have is eight high and diamonds/spades raising here is too transparent? Just listing some arguments, I can definitely see reasons to raise here as well, but don't think it's clear cut.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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I do. Why would you not raise that turn card?

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Because i think that turn donk most likely comes from a made hand that's not folding, I wouldn't be thrilled about getting reraised, because all I have is eight high and diamonds/spades raising here is too transparent? Just listing some arguments, I can definitely see reasons to raise here as well, but don't think it's clear cut.

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I agree, the donk bet screams of a hand that isn't folding.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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I do. Why would you not raise that turn card?

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Because i think that turn donk most likely comes from a made hand that's not folding, I wouldn't be thrilled about getting reraised, because all I have is eight high and diamonds/spades raising here is too transparent? Just listing some arguments, I can definitely see reasons to raise here as well, but don't think it's clear cut.

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I agree, the donk bet screams of a hand that isn't folding.

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Yeah, people like to semi-bluff raise/check raise when their hands have a ton of outs like the current hand. These semi-bluffs shouldn't rely on you relative hand strength as much as the fold equity you have based on hand reading. Clearly the more outs you have, the less fold equity you need to make a semi-bluff profitable. But I think Barron is choosing a spot with very little fold equity, just a lot of outs.

I'm not sure if calling the turn and raising if you hit is better than OPs line since it is of course possible that Angelina can release quite a few hands here or maybe the donk bet isn't being read correctly as a strong hand that wants to see showdown.

Krishan

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

I check here, most of the time Angelina puts money in the pot after a river bet from you you're going to be behind.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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This is a clear value check. Angelina is not calling that turn bet with the intention of folding for one bet on the river and he doesn't bet that turn on a draw either.

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I disagree about a possible draw being bet. It might be a draw that has improved.
I would bet to get a better 7 to fold. This hand didn't play like a 9 but maybe a weak ace that didn't want you to get away on the flop. I think Ace is less then 50% so I bet plus if my hand was good she doesn't get to see it.
Mike

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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I like a bet here...it may chase out a 9.

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I really don't see second pair folding here pretty much ever with both flush draws (and the straight draw we also had) missing.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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I do. Why would you not raise that turn card?

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Because i think that turn donk most likely comes from a made hand that's not folding

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This is a good shorthanded player. I haven't played with him, but I would assume that that means that he mixes up his play enought that check-calling the flop and leading the turn doesn't automatically mean made hand.

RESULTS
 

so i took the easy way out and checked.

angelina showed Kc6c for a pair of 6s on the turn and i take it down w/ a pair of 7s.

afterwards though i thought that i might fold out a better pair of 7s w/ a draw of somekind in addition to the 9. so im not betting to get a 9 to fold so much as a hands like a flush draw + hand that may contain a 7.

just somehting to think about that nobody mentioned.

Barron

Re: RESULTS
 

Angelina Fekali

[ QUOTE ]
Josif's second child, a smart young girl named Angelina. If the male Fekali family line is decidedly pragmatic, she is the Yang to Izmet's Ying. Born into the family poker money, she cares about chips, but not about dollars. Spending money comes surprisingly natural to her, but try taking a $5 chip off her stack!

[/ QUOTE ]

This was gone over a long time ago right? Is it not actually her but a hoax? Link anyone?

Re: RESULTS
 

I'm pretty confused by angelina's flop call. From my perspective (if I were playing the hand), the flop totally missed me, there is an ace which my opponent very well could have, what is the point in continuing in the hand? I guess he planned on leading any non broadway turn in an effort to get you to fold, or do you think he was planning on calling you down with his king high unless the board got scary?

If you were in angelina's spot on the flop, what would you usually do and why?

I think there is definitely something I could learn here. Any insight you can give is appreciated.

Re: RESULTS
 

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I'm pretty confused by angelina's flop call. From my perspective (if I were playing the hand), the flop totally missed me, there is an ace which my opponent very well could have, what is the point in continuing in the hand? I guess he planned on leading any non broadway turn in an effort to get you to fold, or do you think he was planning on calling you down with his king high unless the board got scary?

If you were in angelina's spot on the flop, what would you usually do and why?

I think there is definitely something I could learn here. Any insight you can give is appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't speak for what angelina was thinking.

but i can tell you that ive played enough hands with him to have a history.

we are both very aggressive players, however, for the most part, i require some sort of hand to defend or take the offensive in or out of position.

angelina is capable of playing back very very light, as seen here by his flop call w/ K6cc.

i will, however, fold to that turn donk enough to make it a worthy proposition.

given that he check called the flop and bet the turn i didn't think he had an ace, or even a 9 (although a 9 was more likely than the A at that point, and imo.)

i raised b/c that check call on the flop and turn bet could be done with nothing, albeit a nothing that still beats 8 high.

plus, if called, i have many many outs to make a hand. angelina wont tilt though so thats not a factor. the only implied odds are 1 bet plus the increased fold equity to a riverbet.

had i NOT made a showdownable pair, the river would have been an interesting street...does a 6 call there? what about a 7? a bet may be called for.

but given my hand and the action, i felt a bet would accomplish nothing so i checked.

angelina and i will continue to play together i would assume and playing HU in or out of position makes me think more about a hand and the general texture of the entire hand and those that preceeded it and not just what is happeneing at the moment.

Barron

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

hearing angelina but not getting jolie following is depressing.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

f'real

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
so i took the easy way out and checked.

angelina showed Kc6c for a pair of 6s on the turn and i take it down w/ a pair of 7s.

afterwards though i thought that i might fold out a better pair of 7s w/ a draw of somekind in addition to the 9. so im not betting to get a 9 to fold so much as a hands like a flush draw + hand that may contain a 7.

just somehting to think about that nobody mentioned.

Barron

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You really need to bet. Giving free showdowns in spots like this is going to ensure that Angelina continues to take shots at you in these headsup situations.

Re: RESULTS
 

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I'm pretty confused by angelina's flop call. ...

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angelina is capable of playing back very very light, as seen here by his flop call w/ K6cc...ngelina and i will continue to play together i would assume and playing HU in or out of position makes me think more about a hand and the general texture of the entire hand and those that preceeded it and not just what is happeneing at the moment.


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Do you think you need to bet the turn unimproved more often as an overall strategy against Angelina or do you think Angelina will often call you down with K-high in these situations?

See the other bio\'s
 

Read the other bio's they're friggin hysterical.

Professional sheepherders and license plate makers...


Tim [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: RESULTS
 

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so i took the easy way out and checked.

angelina showed Kc6c for a pair of 6s on the turn and i take it down w/ a pair of 7s.

afterwards though i thought that i might fold out a better pair of 7s w/ a draw of somekind in addition to the 9. so im not betting to get a 9 to fold so much as a hands like a flush draw + hand that may contain a 7.

just somehting to think about that nobody mentioned.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

You really need to bet. Giving free showdowns in spots like this is going to ensure that Angelina continues to take shots at you in these headsup situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

clark, ive been in spots where i bet this river as well. angelina will continue to take shots at me irrespective of this particular street's action. i agree with your point but vastly discount its real affect.

Barron

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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i'd check because i would hate to be check raised here

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this is a stupid reason..
getting checkraised here is ok because youll NEVER have the best hand, and you wont have to show down your ugly hand that you were pounding with.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much short-handed poker have you played with good players? I haven't played a lot, but in my short experience, river bluffs are not unusual.


[/ QUOTE ]plenty... a river CR here is never a bluff. no way.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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i'd check because i would hate to be check raised here

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this is a stupid reason..
getting checkraised here is ok because youll NEVER have the best hand, and you wont have to show down your ugly hand that you were pounding with.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much short-handed poker have you played with good players? I haven't played a lot, but in my short experience, river bluffs are not unusual.


[/ QUOTE ]plenty... a river CR here is never a bluff. no way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey flawless, I have check-raised rivers like this several times in my poker career, especially when playing shorthanded against people who think that no one would ever bluff a river like this.
-James

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

A checkraise on the river is one thing but a checkraise river bluff is another. In order for the latter to work, one has to be very confident that the other guy will bet the river for him. If that confidence is not there, a bluff bet is the safer course than a river checkraise bluff.

IME, most river checkraise bluffs come to mind after the fact. That is, they happen when player A has given up on a hand because he expects Player B to call if he bluffs. But then he also expects Player B to check if he checks. But when Player B bets instead of chceking, it then dawns on Player A that perhaps Player B may also be weak thereby making Player A think that a river chcekraise bluff might work.

Here, that situation would not arise given the board and previous action thereby making a river checkraise bluff quite risky for Angelina. So, if she did chcekraise DCFIR's river bet, I would be hardpressed to think that she might be bluffing often enough to make my call positive Ev.

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

i havent seen it, but you may be very good at getting away w/ it... haha.


checkraise bluffing this river would be a pretty ugly play, IMO...

Re: hand vs. Angelina
 

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Hey flawless, I have check-raised rivers like this several times in my poker career, especially when playing shorthanded against people who think that no one would ever bluff a river like this.
-James

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I think checkraises in spots like this work better on slightly different boards where it's more clear what you are representing.