AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

typical 24/17/2 TAG, nothing out of line


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)
FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP calls, CO calls, SB folds.

Flop: (7 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP folds, CO calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

check, check
check, bet, call.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

But why

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

i was thinking fire away at first, but given the read I want to check. He could have a flush draw, but a pocket pair is likely as well. Now Im thinking I have to fire away. If raised its an easy fold, but dont want to give a free card to a draw. Interested to see what others think.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

I like bet/fold.

We need to look at the range that the Villain limps here. He probably has a weak suited connector or a small pp. I think he's unlikely to bluff-raise a turn with nothing. So you can bet in the hopes of winning the pot immediately.

If he does raise, calling may not be so bad. Most of you overcard outs may be good, although I think bet/fold is better since he might be limping Ax.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

Because he isn't folding anything that beats us, but he might bet his QJ and JTs UI.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

But wouldn't we prefer winning the pot right away?

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

Checkfold. Our sensible 24/17 opponent has limped behind another player and then called the flop. Cases:

1A. Small pocket pair hit set. 0 outs.
1B. Small pocket pair calling down. 6 outs.

2. Axs/Kxs flopped pair (else why call). 3 outs.

3A. Small connector cards flopped pair. 6 outs.
3B. Small connector pair flopped straight draw and hit something on the turn. 0-6 outs.

4. Flush draw (Axs/Kxs/connectors)
A. Already paired. 2-4 outs.
B. Not paired. Villain has 12-21 outs and will often take the free card.

Certainly you may be ahead here. But unless this opponent frequently floats in this situation there is no way you have pot odds to try and prove it. You have no appreciable fold equity, you are usually way behind, and he has many outs when you are ahead. It will cost 2 BB to try and collect try and collect the 4 BB in the pot.

Check and hope for a free card. If he really has the flush draw you are likely to get it.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

I am part of the bet fold group. I see all kinds of heart draws that we are still ahead of. I could also see KQ pealing on that flop and then folding the turn.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Checkfold. Our sensible 24/17 opponent has limped behind another player and then called the flop. Cases:

1A. Small pocket pair hit set. 0 outs.
1B. Small pocket pair calling down. 6 outs.

2. Axs/Kxs flopped pair (else why call). 3 outs.

3A. Small connector cards flopped pair. 6 outs.
3B. Small connector pair flopped straight draw and hit something on the turn. 0-6 outs.

4. Flush draw (Axs/Kxs/connectors)
A. Already paired. 2-4 outs.
B. Not paired. Villain has 12-21 outs and will often take the free card.

Certainly you may be ahead here. But unless this opponent frequently floats in this situation there is no way you have pot odds to try and prove it. You have no appreciable fold equity, you are usually way behind, and he has many outs when you are ahead. It will cost 2 BB to try and collect try and collect the 4 BB in the pot.

Check and hope for a free card. If he really has the flush draw you are likely to get it.


[/ QUOTE ]

very good post.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

We really, really don't mind if KQ takes a free card on the turn or bluffs at us.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

OK then, If we check and call a turn bet then what do we do on the river. Do we check call UI.

I still think that is a bet/fold.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

See Stellar Wind's post. It explains things better than I could.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

This may be FPS talking here so let me know if I'm being an idiot.

What is TAG just calling here with? If he's got a flush draw or even a pair with one overcard he would normally raise here. However, if he knows that you may defend against the free card then he might not. If he's got two overcards + bd draw he's got odds to just call and I think that's probably more likely in this case. When the non heart hits I think I bet the turn as a semibluff here.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

Im betting, I dont think he connected, and I think were betting for value, im folding to a raise, and i think hes acutally folding to our a bet a lot of the time unless hes AK as well... if he calls ,im checking river and reconsidering my line

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

Very good explanation. One very stupid question though. What does float in this context mean?

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

I think a tag with a flush draw will cr this flop, it is likely he is peeling with overs or overs with a backdoor fl draw.

I would bet-fold this turn and ch fold river unimproved. I dont see many hands that he takes to river that we beat unimproved. If u check he might bluff but he might also get a free card or be able to value bet a small pp on turn and river.

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

24 vpip, u really think hes overcalling kx ax?? no way, or suited connector overcalling? seldomly, but I do like your analysis, and clearly a small pair is likely and bad for hero

Re: AK oop vs TAG; turn plan?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im betting, I dont think he connected, and I think were betting for value, im folding to a raise, and i think hes acutally folding to our a bet a lot of the time unless hes AK as well... if he calls ,im checking river and reconsidering my line

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a number of problems with this. Firstly, if we know he's 24/17, he probably knows we're TAG as well. We've shown a good amount of strength in this hand. Stellarwind pretty much went over all this, but basically you're wrong that villain didn't connect. Either he connected in a small way, or he has a big draw that he wants to hit before he goes to war with hero. If you bet the turn and get raised, you're somtimes going to be folding incorrectly and you really don't want that. If you check and he bets, you're basically never folding incorrectly. If you're going to bet bet, c/f, then he's going to pick up on that and take a lot of pots away from you. If you play that LAG you have to get to showdown more or you'll get killed. Give yourself a cheaper way out here.