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- - Slowrolling (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=395576)

So I was at a friendly home game i play at 2x a week yesterday, and I encountered someone slowrolling... accidentally. Anyways, it was a 4 heart board by the time the river was dealt so you only needed one heart to make the flush, and one guy shows trips.... as he shows he asks, "Do you have the flush" he responds "no" I was busted by now and he had been showing me his cards when he got em and I knew he had the flush... he had QJ offsuit diamond/heart. So when he said this i told him to flip his cards, because he did indeed have the flush. Guy with trips got really angry bla bla bla and left pissed. We found out a hand or 2 later that he had taken his glasses off and he said he didnt intentionally do it. What made me mad was the guy with trips inquired to me "Don't I get the pot?" And actually thought because he said he didnt have the flush that he doesnt get the pot, he wasnted the guy with the flush's hand declared dead even though it was nowhere near the muck. WWYD?

one head to a hand. if that guy can't properly read his hand it's his fault. had you not said anything he would have folded and the trips man would have gotten the pot.

but, since it wasn't technically a "fold", the hand was still live and he only needed to show his hand to claim the pot.

the guy who lost has the right to be upset with you since you cost him the pot, but since it was a friendly game it should be no biggie.

I think the one solid rule in this situation is to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business.

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I was busted by now ...

WDYT ?

*

I think you need to make a habit of bringing enough money to this game so as to never tap out.

- As to the other thing . . .

You did nothing wrong. I agree with the "keep your mouth shut" advice but there is a big difference between being inappropriate and being wrong.

You were the former; you were not wrong.

Tell the warm-hearted fellow who stormed out when he wasn't given the pot (hahaha) that even in a cardroom (at least all I've ever been in) the flush would have won that pot.

There are a few rooms that would have killed his hand if he had made on overt gesture of surrender that induced his opponent to muck - somewhat akin to the (seldom enforced) rule designed to punish anyone who overcalls his hand - but this was not the case here.

Tell "flushy" to keep his glasses on in the future.

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I was busted by now ...

WDYT ?

*

I think you need to make a habit of bringing enough money to this game so as to never tap out.

- As to the other thing . . .

You did nothing wrong. I agree with the "keep your mouth shut" advice but there is a big difference between being inappropriate and being wrong.

You were the former; you were not wrong.

Tell the warm-hearted fellow who stormed out when he wasn't given the pot (hahaha) that even in a cardroom (at least all I've ever been in) the flush would have won that pot.

There are a few rooms that would have killed his hand if he had made on overt gesture of surrender that induced his opponent to muck - somewhat akin to the (seldom enforced) rule designed to punish anyone who overcalls his hand - but this was not the case here.

Tell "flushy" to keep his glasses on in the future.

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Thats bull . . telling this guy he did nothing wrong. he violated a basic RULE of poker "ONE PLAYER TO A HAND". This isn't just bad ettiquette it is against the rules.

You handled it like you should have, though the fact that you were out of the tournament makes it a little sticky.

Cards speak for themselves. Make it a written rule.....but you have to show them for them to do that.... I believe all home games should play this way.

Also, were I that guy - I might not like you pointing out his hand to him. Its one thing if hes letting you peek....but it MUST BE only ONE player to a a hand. You can't help him with the hand dude.

Honestly? IF he mucks - he loses....
If hes at all unsure....encourage him to show his cards to everyone so that they can speak for themselves.

I'm glad the best hand won, but I don't know if you should interefere with the hand in the middle of it .... PAST just encouraging him to table his cards.

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If hes at all unsure....encourage him to show his cards to everyone so that they can speak for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]This is good advice if you're being a friendly observer AND HAVEN"T SEEN HIS FLUSH. The fact that he showed you his cards and THAT'S why you gave him advice is really poor. It's blatantly inappropriate to say ANYTHING after he lets you sweat him. Duh.

I agree that cards speak. However, observers shouldn't.
-Sam

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If hes at all unsure....encourage him to show his cards to everyone so that they can speak for themselves.

[/ QUOTE ]This is good advice if you're being a friendly observer AND HAVEN"T SEEN HIS FLUSH. The fact that he showed you his cards and THAT'S why you gave him advice is really poor. It's blatantly inappropriate to say ANYTHING after he lets you sweat him. Duh.

I agree that cards speak. However, observers shouldn't.
-Sam

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<<pats self on back>>
<<wipes tear from eye>>

1. Cards speak, the flush wins.

2. One person to a hand. Im my home games the penalty for showing a hand to an observer is a dead hand. I'd suggest instituting a similar rule.

I expected to read a story about a slowroll and instead get a story about a couple of idiots.
FYP

I wasn't sure the one player to a hand rule applied to this situation so, as always, I checked Robert's Rules for guidance.

"The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:

...

Reading a hand for another player at the showdown before it has been placed faceup on the table.

Telling anyone to turn a hand faceup at the showdown."

So what you did was, in fact, improper. It goes a little against my grain, because I like the best hand to win. It's a good reason to always table your hands faceup at showdown though.

--Zetack

I agree, I was wrong earlier- I missed that the OP was out of the hand and had access to information that affected his statement to the player.

Now, if the OP had NOT seen the hand and told the player to turn over his cards, would that have been wrong, Zetack?

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I agree, I was wrong earlier- I missed that the OP was out of the hand and had access to information that affected his statement to the player.

Now, if the OP had NOT seen the hand and told the player to turn over his cards, would that have been wrong, Zetack?

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Larry I've been thinking about this.

I'm revisiting my original ruling. As far as the OP's actions go, do the rules I cited actually apply to him since he's not a player since he busted out (Its not clear whether this is a cash game or a tourney but either way he's out). And don't rules only apply to players?

Now if this is poker etiquette then it should apply to OP because ettiquette applies to everybody. But then if its ettiquette its not actually a rule and binding, its just common practice and what's "polite". Even though the lines I cited appear under Poker Etiquette in Robert's Rules, the first sentence I quoted, providing penalities, [The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:] clearly makes it clearly a rule not simply ettiquette.

So do the rules apply to a non-player? The first rule I cited clearly does not as it prohibits: "Reading a hand for another player at the showdown before it has been placed faceup on the table."

The second rule does not have the word player in it, but I think both by implication, and by our common understanding of the nature of "rules" it too should only apply to players. That rule again prohibits " Telling anyone to turn a hand faceup at the showdown".

So have I flopped positions here? Not quite. Fortunately for preserving the intent of the rules I cited above, we get this rule from Robert's Rules under procedures:

9. Only one person may play a hand.

But since I believe the rules only apply to players this violation belongs not to the OP but to the guy who was getting ready to throw away the winning flush. When he received advice from a person who had seen his hand (and the decision to show or muck is part of the play of the hand) then the advice receiving player was violating the one player to a hand rule and should have been penalized. In this case, by not winning the pot.

Why do I go through all this hoop jumping though? Because I do think a person who has not seen the cards can ask/tell/implore a player to show his hand. It makes no sense to me that an audience member can't shout out: show them! And in that respect the OP if he had not seen the cards would be in the same position as any random person in the stands, he could say show em! The rule against telling a player to showdown doesn't apply since he's not a player himself. And the one person to a hand rule doesn't apply since he hasn't seen the hand and can't possibly be playing it.

--Zetack

Nothing's easy in poker, is it? :P

I struggled with this one also, since if the player has called all bets on the end, then advising them to turn over their hand to make sure they've lost SEEMS appropriate.

If I saw the hand, then "one player to a hand" could apply as you stated. That would be a tough argument to try to use in the heat of the moment.

<<Subtle hijacking in progress>>

To alter this slightly:

WHAT IF - hypothetically - the guy who missed his flush tabled his loser as if he thought he lost...then the dealer looks at the hand - also misses the flush and pulls the cards into the muck pile.

Zeteck and Lottery - how would you feel about an audience member shouting out, "He had a flush! I saw his cards!"

Basically - the cards speak for themselves - but to WHOM?

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<<Subtle hijacking in progress>>

To alter this slightly:

WHAT IF - hypothetically - the guy who missed his flush tabled his loser as if he thought he lost...then the dealer looks at the hand - also misses the flush and pulls the cards into the muck pile.

Zeteck and Lottery - how would you feel about an audience member shouting out, "He had a flush! I saw his cards!"

Basically - the cards speak for themselves - but to WHOM?

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To everybody, I don't have time to pull up the rules at the moment, but I believe that's specifically addressed, that pretty much everybody has an actual affirmative duty to speak up, including non-players.

Besides cards speak. The better hand has a right to that pot even if he doesn't realize it, even if nobody at the table realizes it, whearas if he mucks it, then he does not.

There is also a rule that if anybody but the "winner" of a hand asks to see a hand that was mucked at showdown, that hand is not live and cannot win the pot even it it turns out to be the best hand. If the "winner" asks to see it though, it is live and can still win the hand if it turns out to be better than the "winner's" hand.

--Zetack

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I expected to read a story about a slowroll and instead get a story about a couple of idiots.
FYP

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LOL [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]