IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

When you see a player on the street. Dont say a word!! Do you know who they are? Do you know who they are with? Do you know what they do for a living? Do you know how it could affect them? Could the image you portray upon them to the 3rd parties they are with cost them their livlihood? Or maybe the adoption of a child the player and wife are dealing with, with the lady from "Catholic chilcare svcs" or some such thing?


Regardless of how much we love the game. Regardless of the recent popularity of the game. Regardless of the TV exposure. Regardless of the larger puplic accpetance.

Poker is still unacceptable to some. Being as it is unacceptable to some, we must be mindful of this and aware that sometimes a person may be in a sitiuation where had it been known they are a poker player they could come to great harm. Whether it be by public scrutiny, Employer-employee relations, or business dealings thwarted by someones opinion
because they are a poker player.

Maintaining another players anonymity, unless it is known to be ok, is one of those ethical principles that you dont read about in any books, see posted on any walls, hear about on any TV shows, nor do we see posted on 2+2 even.

But it is a long standing principle that seems to be forgotten by all but a select few oldtimers.

Just some thoughts for you.

edited, a spelling/grammer error

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Holla at a playa when you see him in the streets

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Holla at a playa when you see him in the streets

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO!!

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Good call lets all hang our heads in shame. I am thinking about coming out of the closet to my family and friends that I am in fact a poker player, do you think this is a good idea?

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

thats always up to you. But it shouldnt be up to someone else.

20 years ago I knew A VP for THE GAP. (long since past away)

He would often take foreign business associates out to dinner. He could conduct millions of dollars worth of business just by going to dinner and getting to know these people. Yet he could lose MILLIONS if the wrong image was presented.

90% of the players at the poker room had no idea what "Gene the GAP' did for a living.

How long do you think you would stay healthy had you been the waiter or busboy at the fine dinner establishment where he brought a couple of clients and you spouted off at the mouth?

Even if there was no threat to you personally, why would you want to screw up someones career?

True story, point made, sincere food for thought.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

OMG, how scandolous that Gene played poker while his solid upstanding business associates sold cheap shmatas for a gazillion percent profit... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Well its a good thing you gave an example from 20 years ago isntead of in this day and age when people are more openminded about poker.

C'mon man its not like we're in a kiddy porn ring, we're playing poker.

Even my girlfriends dad who is a pastor has "gambled it up" playing golf with his buddies for 10 cents a hole. Do you think his church would go under if people found out about it?

Give it a rest.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

The point is it isnt up to you!!!

Let the player decide who knows and who doesnt.

Is that so freaking hard to accept? What BENEFIT do you get from NOT allowing that?

There are plenty of people in this world that do not accept poker the way we do. WTF is so bad about that? That is their choice. It is not my job in life to impose my lifestyle upon others. Which is what you apparently wish to do.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Well, you know, I'd agree that civility would dictate that we don't go blabbing such things to strangers.

On the other hand, behavior conducted in public (like a casino) isn't exactly a secret, and it's hard to argue that it should be treated like one.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

And exactly how long have you been in and around this business? For me it is only 35 years so maybe I dont have enuf experience to expound on such a topic.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

What? The business of acting as if public behavior is some sort of dark secret?

If you don't want anyone talking about what you do in public, the answer is simple: don't do it in public. Complaining about whether or not someone talked about it afterward is just blaming the wrong person.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well its a good thing you gave an example from 20 years ago isntead of in this day and age when people are more openminded about poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Less than 4 hours ago, I was in a car dealership trying to make a sale. A man was at the counter making a payment, and began talking about a night that he won $1800 hustling pool. The manager of the dealership began explaining that he stopped gambling after he became a Christian. If I had somehow run into someone I knew in there, who subsequently asked me about my upcoming casino trip, what do you think that would have done to that manager's opinion of me, and to my chances of making a sale? "20 years ago" is irrelevant, even if some people are more open-minded these days.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

here here.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

I wonder why there are no POKER ROOMS with windows open to the outside public? Got any clue to that toots?

Oh, and I am sure you have been to hundreds and hundreds of poker rooms in your lifetime. Like the 2 table rooms attached to the front of a bar, back of a bar, etc.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Alright man, you made your point.

By any chance, did someone ruin a date/business-meeting by approaching you and asking about poker? It seems you've got a personal problem with this issue.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Casinos don't have windows for the same reason they don't have clocks easily visible - the less people notice the passing of time, the more likely they are to stay longer. One of those little psychological tricks, its not at all about privacy. If it were, I wouldn't think I'd be parking my car, easily visible, in a wide-open parking lot with tons of other equally visible vehicles.

I gotta say, I'm with the other posts...if playing poker with someone in public would potentially be dangerous to one's career, they shouldn't freakin' do it. Common sense, y'all. We're all bigb boys and girls, and can make our own choices, especially when it comes to our careers, and job security.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Whats my problem with this issue?

I work in the business and want to protect you!! You dumbass!! I want to protect each and every player. I have been here at 2+2 for 6-7 years, I have been around the poker business for 30+ years. I have seen lots in my short life. When some dipshit doesnt realize that I am speaking FOR HIS BENEFIT it boggles the mind.

Whats interesting is that only 1 person of well over 300 views has had any conception or understanding of the PRINCIPLES and the context of the topic.

My best guess is 75% of the respondents are under 23yrs old in this thread and seemingly KNOW IT ALL!!

I remember getting over being a "know it all" when I was about 17. Amazingly I learned a hell of a lot more when I decided to follow those that had been there before me. Learn from the experience of others. The road is much softer when people can show where the bumps are.

PS. Nobody ever approached ME nor affected ME, nor the persons close to me. But I have seen it happen all too often over the years. It's caused disagreements in marriages, boyfriend/girlfriend problems, business problems, and even political officals have had to hear the wrath.

The funniest part about this is I learned this principle at age 10. Who taught me this? MY MOTHER who worked in the business. Why is it a 10 yr old can accept it so readily and y'all have such trouble with it?

off my high horse for now.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Bigfish,

FWIW, I totally understand and respect the point of view you are bringing in your post, and it seems, through the tone of your posts in this thread, that you care deeply about the potential problems that the "image" of a poker player can bring people...but...

At what point does one become responsible for living their lives for themselves, and honestly so. I, as an adult, am responsible for myself and my own actions. Other adults are likewise responsible for themselves. The simple fact is this - if someone who chooses to play poker is uncomfortable with the potential image of said hobby, they merely shouldn't take it up. Seriously, I can't be expected to facilitate someone essentially living a lie simply due to the fact that they play poker in a public place. If playing poker could potentially be dangerous to their career, relationships, or anything else, they SHOULDN'T GO. It really is that simple. Now, that said, I'm not going to simply run up to someone and say "Hey, so and so, how are ya? Ever get back to even after I took that monster pot off you on Friday?", but again, if they understand and accept the potential risk of playing, they are mature enough to understand what may come of it if their "dirty little secret" becomes known.

I've feel like I've begun to ramble a bit, but this is the way things are. Enter a casino or any other place of "questionable" image, and implicitly accept the potential ramifications.

Common sense.

-Edge

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Since when is it MY responsibility to break YOUR anonymity?

Edge: What I care about is that your "funtime", or "hobby",
or "Second profession", is YOURS! It is your business to bring up with whom you chose, when you chose. NOT MINE. It also is not my place to decide who should or shouldnt play, as you suggest that one shouldnt if persons near them may not understand. You/we are not facilitating a lie because said player thinks nothing of playing poker but knows his
"Mormon Elder of the church" boss would be disgraced if known. These are two people living much different lives/lifestyles under differing principles, yes neither is WRONG in their own personal beliefs.

Does that make sense?

BTW I only used the "Mormon Elder of the church" as a poor example. I have no idea if poker or gambling is looked upon poorly with Mormons. No harm was meant. FWIW...LV has a very high % of Mormons so I probably am full of shixt using that as an example.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

I'm not in the business of keeping other people's secrets. If someone is ashamed of being a poker player, that's his/her problem, not mine. I'll talk about it if I feel like it.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

this post is so dumb that i had to come out of my shell in the OOT forum just to say so.

where did this post come from? it seems kind of out of the blue. i totally understand the point bigfishead is trying to make, who wouldn't. BUT it's definitely nobody's job to keep secrets for another person.

someone else (maybe more than one person) said it best when they said, if you're in a position where someone finding out about your playing cards would be a bad thing, then DON'T PLAY CARDS IN PUBLIC, else you are creating the possibility of being exposed by yourself and yourself only.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Agreed.

If someone asked me not to mention it, I'd see no reason not to go along. That's basic civility.

But I am in no way obliged to keep secrets for total strangers concerning their public behavior.

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[ QUOTE ]
this post is so dumb that i had to come out of my shell in the OOT forum just to say so.

where did this post come from? it seems kind of out of the blue. i totally understand the point bigfishead is trying to make, who wouldn't. BUT it's definitely nobody's job to keep secrets for another person.



[/ QUOTE ]

I just bumped the thread "where this came from". yesterdays poster brought it to mind. take a look.

Nobody is asking you to keep somebodys secrets. But understanding the POSSIBLE SENSITIVITY of our favorite pastime in regards to others and respecting others is the basis of the principle. NOT saying anything in public is just a simple manner of respect of others and the POSIBILITY
of that SENSITIVITY of the subject.

I know a man that is a recovering alcoholic. He has a high profile job in public service. It requires a public vote to get this job. Can you see how this person could be affected if the public knew he was alcoholic? Yet, this man has been totally sober for over 30 years. Not a single drop. His being a recovering alcoholic (until the day they die, an alcoholic is always "recovering") does not affect his job performance. One in which he is very highly regarded. yet I think we can all see how it could change the publics perception if they knew. Can we now see the parallel?

It is not my place to point out to the public that this man is a recovering alcoholic.

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the point is you should have to be asked. Let them bring it up in public when you are alone and they are with someone. Or vice versa, they are alone and you are with someone. You are aknowledging it's ok for you.

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So you're saying poker playing is comparable to being an alcoholic?

AMEN BROTHER!
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you see a player on the street. Dont say a word!! Do you know who they are? Do you know who they are with? Do you know what they do for a living? Do you know how it could affect them? Could the image you portray upon them to the 3rd parties they are with cost them their livlihood?

[/ QUOTE ]

I enjoy playing the horses(have owned a few) and cannot tell you how many times I have been out and heard "Hey. You been to the track lately?" Followed by the desire to tell stories in front of others who do not understand. Rude B.S. Totally inappropriate.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

Bigfishhead, you are operating under the same premise as I, that other people matter and manners are important.

I often feel that no one thinks for a moment about how their words will affect others before they open their mouths. Its like the Jerry Springer shows about out of control kids, the first thing they say is "Whatever, I do what I want, whatever!"

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

I could give a hoot what up tight freakazoids think .

If someone thinks I am degenerate scum because I play poker, they aren't worth even listening to.... let alone worthy of hearing me speak AT ALL.

Now if someone lost EVERYTHING gambling, I might look down on that, just a smidge.

>TW<

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bigfishhead, you are operating under the same premise as I, that other people matter and manners are important.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. So true. It is about common courtesy and manners. It is about "other people matter". Very well put.

[ QUOTE ]
I often feel that no one thinks for a moment about how their words will affect others before they open their mouths.

[/ QUOTE ]

So very very true.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

I am glad you posted this. There are a lot of people coming into this business both as guests and staff that are unfamiliar with what is appropiate.

RR

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While bigfishead seems incapable of writing without sounding like he's yelling, he's right.

Claiming that many people in this country don't stigmatize gambling is naive. Bringing up someone's gambling in the context of a social situation you don't understand is inconsiderate. It can cause problems for them, make them upset with you, and can be bad for the game you play in (especially if the person you out is a live one).

scrub

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[ QUOTE ]

So you're saying poker playing is comparable to being an alcoholic?

[/ QUOTE ]

To some people, yes. And you won't know who they are until it's too late.

scrub

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

must...not...be...an...ass...

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yo scrub, the only context in which it would appear I am yelling was when responding to ignorant responses.

but...thanks for yours!!
Regards [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

C'mon, he's right, this is just common sense.

Gambling has a negative stigma and there are definitely inappropriate times to bring up that you know someone only from a card room.

My girlfriend made the mistake of telling my "born-again" parents I won a cruise playing in a poker tournament. I now have the pleasure of being invited to church every Sunday morning where I can learn to fill my empty degenerate gambler's life with God. I mean, Sunday morning, you have to be joking. Football is on Sunday morning.

It's like being on the Hi-Q team in high school: You don't want all your nerdy teammates coming up to you and saying "Way to nail that Diff EQ question in the clutch!" while your sitting with your basketball teammates.

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WTF is HI-Q? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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bigfishead:
I agree with your view and appreciate you posting it.

I spent quite a bit of time in Tunica, 80% at the GoldStrike, from last October to April.
I hope your point of view gets transferred from management to staff in all poker rooms.

One <font color="red">VERY IMPORTANT</font> point that no one has mentioned is that with public poker not legal in most places in the USA, there are probably more people playing poker in illegal, backroom cardrooms, whether bars, fraternal halls, gas stations, and every type of home and commercial space imaginable than there are people playing in legal cardrooms.

There are many, many people playing in these illegal rooms who would definitely suffer from having that knowledge exposed. Some might even be prosecuted if the room is subsequently busted.
Plus, when a room gets shut down, where are those players going to go? I have to drive 400+ miles to get to a decent group of legal cardrooms. I want the rooms near me to stay open!!

Every thinking player should thank bigfishead.

Re: IMPORTANT ETHICAL STATEMENT-MUST READ
 

It's like the math team only way way dorkier. A team competes w/ other schools to answer trivia questions. In my defense, I had a crush on the teams only girl.

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[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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It used to be on TV on Sunday mornings way back when cartoons were only on Saturday.