Do you enjoy gambling?
 

Someone offers you even money on a coin flip. Do you take it? Do you just like betting on things in general? I have some follow-up comments on this idea, but I'll save them for later. For now:

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

This is not a black and white issue. If I think gambling now will get me action with an overlay in the future I'm going for it. If its just volatility I'm not.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a black and white issue. If I think gambling now will get me action with an overlay in the future I'm going for it. If its just volatility I'm not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi muck_nutz,

So if I read you correctly, you don't enjoy gambling, but do it to increase your edge in poker. That's really what I'm asking.

Do you enjoy the thrill of gambling? Do you like roulette? Do you enjoy craps? That kind of thing. Sounds like the answer is no for you.

-Eric

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

I don't like gambling in general, but sometimes I dis-like watching from the sideline enough, that I slip and play J3s.

I'm not a huge fan of "Follow the queen with two ghost hands".

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

For me it would all depend on the stakes. I mean, I enjoy gambling, but I wouldn't [censored] anything significant up. Like my life.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

Occaasional sports betting is the only betting I do that is not >0 EV.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

Craps is awesome. Roulette not so much, slots teh gay.

-SmileyEH

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

Blackjack is was too addctive.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

That's too mindless. I don't mind slightly -EV gambling if I at least have to put thought into it (BJ, it's -EV cause I don't count cards very well), or if its very social (like craps).

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

i dont enjoy gambling neutral situations. i think that the people who do find pleasure in gambling have a significant edge in poker than those that dont assuming that they can control their emotions. they will naturally find enjoyment playing the game to greater extents than those that dont enjoy gambling.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont enjoy gambling neutral situations. i think that the people who do find pleasure in gambling have a significant edge in poker than those that dont assuming that they can control their emotions. they will naturally find enjoyment playing the game to greater extents than those that dont enjoy gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really like a good game of Craps or Blackjack, but I don't agree with you. Poker doesn't feel like gambling to me. I don't get the same rush or excitement.

Bingo
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont enjoy gambling neutral situations. i think that the people who do find pleasure in gambling have a significant edge in poker than those that dont assuming that they can control their emotions. they will naturally find enjoyment playing the game to greater extents than those that dont enjoy gambling.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is exactly the discussion I had in mind when I posted this. Is it to your advantage to enjoy / not enjoy gambling when playing poker?

I personally do not get much enjoyment out of gambling. I love playing games and competing, but really don't care to gamble for the sake of gambling. It isn't a rush for me, or at least, it's not a rush I enjoy.

I think this works in my favor. I don't feel the need to play pocket deuces UTG, hoping to flop a set and win a big hand. I could easily see an argument though that you need to enjoy gambling to become a really good player. I certainly think that I am unlikely to ever find myself in a really big game because I don't enjoy taking those kinds of risks with my bankroll. I think I can beat the 100/200 at party, but I won't play it because I'm not willing to take that kind of risk. If I enjoyed it, I'd be much more likely to win big... or lose big.

-eric

Re: Bingo
 

Some numbers out of my a$$.

Players who do enjoy it are 95% likely to be worse than average and 5% to be much, much better. The only real difference between addiction and ambition might be success there. They're jsut addicted to the action, and their intelligence/discipline forces them to at least win.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

In the long run, the Barry Greenstein types will tend to do much better than the Stu Unger types.

Kinda overblown example but you get the idea.

Re: Bingo
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you wont go to war and gamble you are destined to win at a reduced rate in casino poker

- Zee

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

if you were going for a polar opposite ungar/greenstein is not it. i think its pretty obvious that a barry greenstein temperament is better than a stu ungar temperament. however, if i had to guess i would assume that barry greenstein enjoys gambling considering that he made $250k off of phil ivey at the 10k turningstone tournament by betting on whether red or black would hit the flop.

Re: Bingo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't feel the need to play pocket deuces UTG, hoping to flop a set and win a big hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what game you play in, but if this is a +EV move I don't know why you wouldn't take it.

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly think that I am unlikely to ever find myself in a really big game because I don't enjoy taking those kinds of risks with my bankroll. I think I can beat the 100/200 at party, but I won't play it because I'm not willing to take that kind of risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

If you have a big enough bankroll there shouldn't be any risk.

Re: Bingo
 

he "thinks" he can beat it. meaning that he realizes that he might be wrong and would actually be a loser in the game. as a result, it may be +ev to stay at his usual limits because it assures profit. if he moves up not only may his expectation be in the red, but he also sacrifices the earn he would have made at the lower limit. therefore, if his expectation is $200/hr 50% of the time playing 100/200 and -$10/hr 50% and his expectation at his normal limit is $100/hr 100% of the time, it is actually a losing proposition with extra variance to move up. there is more risk then just bankroll measurements and i assume that is what he was talking about.

Re: Bingo
 

You're right that part of my concern is the risk that maybe I'm not good enough to beat the higher limit games. I'm also factoring bankroll considerations though.

For example, there's a popular saying that all the great poker players have been broke at one point or another. I take this to mean that to really succeed in poker, you have to play above your bankroll and get lucky at some point. You have to take a leap of faith that you can beat the game, and you have to actually beat it quickly.

I assume that the reason "all the good players go broke at some point" is that they are ready and willing to take risks with their bankrolls. I further assume that the reason they take these risks is because they just enjoy gambling, and would be totally busted by it if they weren't so damn good at poker.

I'm just not like that. I can't put my life's fortune on the line. I'm not going to put 60K at risk to play the 100/200, and I'm certainly not going to put whatever I'm worth at risk to play the "big game". I see all the angles, but I don't have the stones to play 'em. And I think that means I'll never be considered one of the greats in this game.

I'm ok with that, and happy with who I am. It's just an interesting thing to ponder. Hence the thread. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Good luck.
Eric

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

or, Maybe he was just getting phil, the gambling type, all worked up! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Of course I'm guessing, but BG does not strike me as the gambling type.

Re: Bingo
 

i think the old phrase that all pro poker players go broke at least once is now outdated if they play internet games. its just simply not true anymore. in the days of the brick and mortar, in order for a player to make a good living he has to play higher and higher limits and often times with only a 300BB bankroll. in the internet age, bankroll growth can explode at much lower limits through magnification of hands.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

Interesting thread. I am probably one of those don't-like-to-gamble people -- I answered 'No' to your question. But I do enjoy playing games, and so would recreationally play losing games for small stakes (e.g. blackjack), with the goal of playing optimally nonetheless.

I'm also not necessarily dazzled by the pros who play the highest stakes games. Opting for a reasonably good chance of earning 50K in a year with some risk of ruin, versus a guaranteed 25K, makes some sense to me. Change the numbers to 500K and 250K, and it seems like a worse decision to me. But I don't value material things to much, and enjoy living a simple life. I play poker largely for enjoyment and the challenge of beating the game -- the fact that I profit off of it is an added bonus, as I don't have to limit how often I play in my leisure time. (Whereas I would be limited if I were playing a losing game like blackjack.)

For every success story of a pro risking his bankroll and becoming rich, you hear so many stories of players who are so attached to the money that they end up making bad decisions with disasterous consequences, either risking money they shouldn't have to play in games above their bankroll or by playing losing poker after going on tilt from some bad beats. I think that there is a lot to be said for being very detached from the gambling aspect of poker. Ultimately, one needs to accept that poker is a gambling game and not deviate from optimal strategy in order to try to guard against the inherent gamble in the game, but most enjoyment of gambling qua gambling is detrimental to a player.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

At my local 20-40 a few months ago, I had a guy's number, generally outplaying him and winning the majority of his $1500 in chips in a very short time.

I picked off a bluff once again to bust him, and he reached into his pocket, slams $2000 down onto the table, which roughly matched my stack and said he would "high spade" me on the next hand for it (higher spade between us wins).

I politely refused and said I'd rather try to win it playing poker. Very angrily, he said "That's what I thought. I just wanted to see how much gamble you have in you!" To him, this was an insult, but I didn't really mind, since I preferred my chances outplaying him.

So, how many of you would have accepted his bet, considering it was essentially a freeroll with his lost money?

Coincidentally, I was dealt the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the next hand. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] However, I'm not sure if the floor would have even allowed it, since sidebets aren't allowed.

Pokerhooker

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it was essentially a freeroll with his lost money

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, it was your money now.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

I guess it depends on how much of a gambler's perspective you have... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

this is money that this player will continue to play poker with. if you win it off him he will probably quit. if he wins your money he will probably stop tilting.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
At my local 20-40 a few months ago, I had a guy's number, generally outplaying him and winning the majority of his $1500 in chips in a very short time.

I picked off a bluff once again to bust him, and he reached into his pocket, slams $2000 down onto the table, which roughly matched my stack and said he would "high spade" me on the next hand for it (higher spade between us wins).

I politely refused and said I'd rather try to win it playing poker. Very angrily, he said "That's what I thought. I just wanted to see how much gamble you have in you!" To him, this was an insult, but I didn't really mind, since I preferred my chances outplaying him.

So, how many of you would have accepted his bet, considering it was essentially a freeroll with his lost money?

Coincidentally, I was dealt the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the next hand. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] However, I'm not sure if the floor would have even allowed it, since sidebets aren't allowed.

Pokerhooker

[/ QUOTE ]first, this post makes you sound limke a D-bag, so id work on that..
second, id have takebn this guys bet... very good for your table image... and eff the floor! no sidebets?? where was this?

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
first, this post makes you sound limke a D-bag, so id work on that

[/ QUOTE ]

You once told me you were going to "punch me in the face"

So yeah, take your own advice

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

Correct.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, how many of you would have accepted his bet, considering it was essentially a freeroll with his lost money?


[/ QUOTE ]

freeroll? The chips are mine. I can go spend them as I wish. This is no more a freeroll then spending money from a paycheck or money from my bankroll is a "freeroll".

But I might have flipped a coin with him. It depends. If he is the type to stay until he gets even but then to bail as soon as he is even I definitely am not flipping a coin with him. I have an edge. I want to execute that over as long a period as I can. OTOH if this is someobdy that I will be gambling with a lot over time and/or I expect he won't leave if he wins the cointoss and I have money available I might flip with him. It also depends on how I want the rest of the table to see me.

FWIW I'll offer to flip coins with the nits when they whine about not getting action. That usu. stops that behavior.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

"Do you gamble, sir?"

"Only when I eat out."

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

I just wanted to add the idea that gambling against friends and acquaintances on near-neutral EV situations can be a decent icebreaker and creates an emotional experience between the two of you, usually good vibes. If this is the case, there is a sort of social +EV to this coinflip assuming the money is trivial to both of you and that you have enough self control so that it doesn't become a raging addiction.

Re: Bingo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I could easily see an argument though that you need to enjoy gambling to become a really good player.

[/ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't see why.

To play very big, perhaps. But I see absolutely no reason why someone with the exact same skills, discipline, and everything else that's important to poker as me except more "love of gambling" will do better than I will. I may not enjoy to raise the river on an extremely high variance bluff, but does that mean I won't do it if I know it is the correct play?

If you are smart enough it doesn't matter whether you are risk-averse, risk-loving or risk-neutral. If you have the discipline to make the right play no matter how high variance it is or whatever other factors there are, I see no reason why an additional "love of variance" will allow you to play better poker.


It just doesn't add up. Where is the edge coming from?

Re: Bingo
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are smart enough it doesn't matter whether you are risk-averse, risk-loving or risk-neutral.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basic economics are at work here. If you don't like to gamble you are seriously doing the wrong thing with your time playing poker.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

I dont like to gamble in general. I couldnt play a game with a negative expectation but thats not the case in poker for a winning player so I like it.
I try to move up asap though, but its not because I need the gamble with my bankroll but because I feel I would be wasting earn otherwise and you improve faster when playing against better competition.

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

I used to like to bet on football, and I'd play craps and blackjack when I'd go to vegas (once every 1.5 years.) I never bet much and never put money I needed into play. Now that I play poker I don't gamble on anything but poker. I guess I don't see the point in putting money on the line if I don't feel I have an edge.

Re: Bingo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you are smart enough it doesn't matter whether you are risk-averse, risk-loving or risk-neutral.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basic economics are at work here. If you don't like to gamble you are seriously doing the wrong thing with your time playing poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I like money and all the other benefits of playing poker more than I dislike variance.

I believe it's extremely shallow to say "if you don't enjoy doing a certain thing, you shouldn't do it."

Re: Do you enjoy gambling?
 

I'll bet on Turkish basketball if it's the only action available...in fact I have.

Wrapping it up.
 

Interesting to see that a forum for gambling is split about down the middle on whether they like gambling for it's own sake. Perhaps we can take this as another demonstration that poker isn't about gambling.

Personally, I agree with the idea that non-gamblers that sill play poker are going to tend to be among the very best players. On the other hand, if they didn't enjoy gambling and they lost, why would they play? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'd argue that the ideal poker player is risk-neutral. They have an advantage over the gamblers. They can be impartial and fold those hands that we oh-so-badly want to see the river with, but that aren't quite getting the right odds. They also have an advantage over the non-gamblers, as they can push those small edges and make those scary thin value bets and raises. Really enjoying gambling hurts your game. Just watch TSP play in a 2+2 15/30 game some time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

my 2 cents.
Eric

Re: Wrapping it up.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Really enjoying gambling hurts your game. Just watch TSP play in a 2+2 15/30 game some time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if this is just a joke or not, but for the record I have never bought a lottery ticket, haven't played a hand of blackjack in 10 years, don't bet the horses, don't own stocks, etc. I don't gamble. I invest -- only in myself.

TSP