I Quit My Day Job
 

It sounds like this guy really hates his life. I mean it seems like every month there is a new article about how being a pro sucks. I know it is a BIG step, I know it is not for everyone. Does someone really need to write an article every month telling me this?

It almost seems like they regret their choice to go pro, they slam poker and make their lives seem miserable. Well, guess what then quit. Quit! And that is the same advice I'd give to anyone else. If you go pro and don't like it, then [censored] quit. Just like anything quit and go back to your old job.

December 2+2 Magazine
"Playing poker for a living"

Playing poker for a living is a big step. It can be a hard life but some people like it and are successful at it. Make sure you have a backup plan if you try it and if you aren't successful/hate it then you can go back to your old job no harm done.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

I don't hate my life. The point of this article was to be a response to Dr. Schoonmaker's earlier articles. Alot of people here are considering making the jump, I just wanted to give them the point of view of someone who has. I by no means am telling people to not make the jump, I'm just trying to tell you what it is really like. It's a grind.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Honestly, these articles are beginning to piss me off.

"Boohoohoo I make money sitting at home on my computer, what an awful life, nobody loves me, I have no friends, I'm fat and have no future."

Tell it to young grads with degrees that are leading them to dead end jobs, or the construction worker finishing cement on cold winter days or mothers who have to leave their kids at home to make ends meet waitressing.

Poker if learned properly can be a great career opportunity, especially for the entrepenurial. Imagine not having to have a mortgage on your first home or condo? How many people would be willing to lead a hard life if they could actually own their property within 3 years of playing? Many people are doing this now but it will take them 20 or 30 years.

The health issue is such a joke I don't even want to comment, but I must: Go to a God Damn Gym 3 times a week for one hour. Do it in the morning when the games are not great. Health problem solved! Who knows, you might even make a friend!

As for Dreary life: welcome to reality. You think it is mor fun spending 60-70 hours at some other job for less money? If you can't take one or two days off a week to spend exclusively with family, friends, or girlfriends, you have a serious gambling problem. Get help!

There are so many upsides to poker that the downsides are negligible unless you already have a job and life you love. You make out of life what YOU WILL.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

I love you.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
the downsides are negligible

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken like a truely inexperienced person.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Hey! You're not Angry any more!!

It is to be expected that players who haven't made the switch wil be offended by parts of this article. I certainly appreciated the points brought up by the author. Also, making money at 3/6 is easy for those who know how to do it. 50K a year seems like a reasonable estimate for online profit at 3/6. I understand that there are plenty of posters here who don't "get" Limit HE, but for those who do, this statement is taken as an easily understood truth.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
As for Dreary life: welcome to reality. You think it is mor fun spending 60-70 hours at some other job for less money? If you can't take one or two days off a week to spend exclusively with family, friends, or girlfriends, you have a serious gambling problem. Get help!

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

quotes like these just crack me up... don't buy into the myth. You don't have to spend 60-70 hours a week working. I never have, and am very sucessful, and I can play poker 15 hours a week or so for a second small source of income (but mainly a hobby).

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

I think doing anything for 8 hours a day 5 or 6 days a week is a grind. But if you have the brain for poker, surely it is a much easier grind than other jobs. And I'm sure after making a significant amount of money, it becomes even easier because you will be financially secure.

All the dreariness and depressing talk has nothing to do with poker, but about being unsatisfied with life. I think many of you guys who are single feel unloved.

So go find Jesus or a girlfriend or something and stop trying to make us want to kill ourselves.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

2 years of working online at home. I love it baby. And I have enough interests, hobbies and girls to occupy my spare time. To Hell with the rat race.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Correct. "The grind" is part of everything. There is no job even being a movie star that is all fun and games. There is a grind to everything, some grinds are worse than others. Poker is less of a grind in my opinion to the other jobs out there.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

You say that but in all those other jobs you can't lose 3,000 in a day. That's what makes it much harder. If playing poker for a living was so easy everyone would be doing it. I'm just trying to provide insight to what it's like. It may sound depressing but everything I wrote was truth. Go to a cardroom anywhere in the world and it's not exactly a happy place. Just look at the regular people around.

Poker has many positive aspects, don't get me wrong. But I just want people to see it's alot harder then people think.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

"Poker has many positive aspects, don't get me wrong. But I just want people to see it's alot harder then people think."

That's fair. A reality check is good. But you don't really lose $3000 dollars a day as you mentioned if you are a good player and understand variance. You'll make it back. I invest on the stock market so I am use to big variance. In fact I like it! Variance makes me money, and it does for poker players too. If the fish didn't win, we would not have their business. It's all about knowledge and having a positive attitude.

Seriously, go on a holiday. And instead of somewhere nice, go to someplace poor and out of the way where you can see people who have real problems like limited food and shelter. You'll come back a new man and appreciate what you have.

Look at Ray Zee. He seems to be a down to earth and happy guy communing with nature and vegetables and what not. Be like Zee.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Lol. I'm okay. Doing quite well actually. I guess this article is based on most people who are just starting out. I mean that even though most seasoned poker pros can deal with varience, most people cannot. They tilt, move up to higher stakes, and play out of their means. Which leads to going bust. I've learned the hard way.

The amazing thig about poker is that it teaches you about yourself. I have flaws, and poker has taught me about these flaws. Since I choose to play poker as a profession, I have had to learn to live in accordance with these flaws and deal with them. I have done this, but some people can't. I'm just trying to help people along the way.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

The health point of your article seems pretty weak to me. If you play poker professionally on the internet, this would leave so much more time to get in fantastic shape than a normal job would.

A lot of people say the reason they don't excersize is because they feel that they have no time. They work long hours and are too tired to get in shape outside of work. Some of these may be lazy and use this excuse as a cover up for their laziness but it is hard.

Anyone who makes no commute to work and expends no physical energy at work should be able to find more time to go to the gym. I would think an internet poker player has a way better shot of getting in good shape than someone who works a day job given the same amount of motivation.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

To make good money playing poker you must play/study long hours just as much if not more then a regular job. If you don't think playing multiple tables at once for 6 to 8 hours a day isn't exhausting, well my friend you are sadly mistaken.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
To make good money playing poker you must play/study long hours just as much if not more then a regular job. If you don't think playing multiple tables at once for 6 to 8 hours a day isn't exhausting, well my friend you are sadly mistaken.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody is saying playing professional poker is a cakewalk. I'm just saying you have a way better opportunity to excersize being a pro internet player than working a regular job. If you have a treadmill and a home gym in your house, you don't even have to leave your home!

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
To make good money playing poker you must play/study long hours just as much if not more then a regular job. If you don't think playing multiple tables at once for 6 to 8 hours a day isn't exhausting, well my friend you are sadly mistaken.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on, I work 30 hours a week, and I'll be damned if I use a minute of my free time reading poker books. Sure, I enjoy the 2+2 community and talking hands here, but I don't "study poker" when not playing. I don't think I'm an exception to the rule. The rule is new players study, old players play. Sure, there is stress in this job, but it isn't like working in a fast-paced kitchen asked to do the job of 1.5 people. True, it is exhausting multi-tabling for 6-8 hours, but it is nothing like shoveling dirt, hauling wood, or busting ass behind the line in a kitchen. I "recover" in minutes from a poker session whereas it would take an hour or two to recover from one of the other jobs I've had.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't hate my life. The point of this article was to be a response to Dr. Schoonmaker's earlier articles. Alot of people here are considering making the jump, I just wanted to give them the point of view of someone who has. I by no means am telling people to not make the jump, I'm just trying to tell you what it is really like. It's a grind.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of your described troubles are self-imposed, and have nothing to do with poker and everything to do with your personal failings.

You have a gym membership and don't go? What's that got to do with poker? Absolutely nothing. You're just lazy. Why are you writing about your laziness and lack of discipline in a poker magazine?

I don't doubt that online poker for a living has its downsides. But you can't blame all the things you mention in your article on the poker. Many of them have nothing to do with poker.

eastbay

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Working 15-20 hours a week and making more alot more money than i need doesn't sound too bad to me. Most of the disadvantages of poker are the same disadvantages that come along with other jobs anyways.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

I think 2+2 Mag should write more articles about going pro and how playing poker for a living is such a grind. We don't need to learn about the game. Poker strategy is only secondary to cautionary articles about going pro. This is what I want to read.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
To make good money playing poker you must play/study long hours just as much if not more then a regular job. If you don't think playing multiple tables at once for 6 to 8 hours a day isn't exhausting, well my friend you are sadly mistaken.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get the sense that you probably have gone pro too early.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

I quit my day job last February. I'd like to rebut this article based on my experiences, at least somewhat.

Anyone considering playing poker as their main source of income should have played enough on a part time basis to get a good idea of his chances for success long before pulling the trigger. The formula for being a poker pro at cash games or sit+gos is very simple. Learn to play technically well in an ABC style. Start at the bottom and work your way up. Keep studying and improving. Don't move up faster than your bankroll or emotions can handle. If someone reasonably intelligent can follow these rules, they have a good chance of at least making a modest living.

Now if you want to call it failure to be making only 50K per year and not being able to move higher, I can think of worse ways to fail. Certainly one could easily suffer the same fate in a regular job. But there is great potential for someone who can move beyond this. It's like free-rolling if you can make an amount comparable to your former job, but with a chance to make much more if you turn out to be good.

As for getting famous, I know most cash game pros regard this as counter-productive, and prefer anonymity. Anyway the average person has very little chance of getting famous anyway, so playing tournament poker would probably give them a better chance than anything else they could try. But I wouldn't recommend playing poker with the goal of getting famous, while simultaneously trying to make a living at it, because the best ways of getting famous in poker involve spending lots of money on travel expenses and tournament entries with little chance of recouping these expenses.

As for it being unhealthy and dreary, it's only as unhealthy and dreary as you allow it to be. I have to admit I don't do the best job with this myself. I do only play a little over four hours a day at most now. I try to work out twice a week but occasionally skip it, so it comes out to around six times a month. I don't get out as much as I should, but I do have personal reasons for this, and should be ready to change that in about six months or so. I have lost about 20 lbs since I started playing full-time, but I still have a lot more I want to take off. I would be doing much better if I simply ate all my meals at home and never went out.

One other thing I have to work on is controlling the mood swings that go along with the bankroll swings. It feels great to run good and it's depressing to have losing or break even stretches. I think part of this is due to the fact that I am moving up pretty aggressively and am always evaluating myself based of the highest limit I've ever played, which is currently 20/40. My goal for the near term is to reach 30/60 and stay there for a while. For every other limit below that I only stayed as long as it took to increase my bankroll enough to move up. I'm hoping that getting stable at one limit for a while and getting some money in the bank will help decouple bankroll from mood.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Hi Everyone:

I haven't read this thread and probably won't get around to reading all the posts, but I do think there is a mistake that Robert Gilbertz is making. That is, he's not thinking about the future.

I'm a pretty good example of this. I played a fair amount of poker for a number of years so that I would get material for our books and would have the money to invest in them. I've even read posts on the Internet about how I drove an old car, lived in a crumy apartment, and didn't have much of a life.

Of course this wasn't true. (For instance I kept my tennis up by playing regularly several times a week.) But even if it was, so what. I was building for the future. If Robert saves some of his money, and I'm assuming he's a youg person in his twenties, the same thing can happen to him.

Now he probably won't be as successful as I am now because Two Plus Two got lucky that a poker boom came along and we just happened to be perfectly situated for it. But he can still be in real good shape financially in the future and have the opportunity to really enjoy life when he gets older. This can be especially true if he invests his money wisely.

So I see nothing wrong, and in fact encourage it, to making some sacrifices when you're young if that helps build your future. So I would argue that Robert's life may actually be much better than he indicates even though he is describing it accurately.

best wishes,
mason

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like this guy really hates his life. I mean it seems like every month there is a new article about how being a pro sucks. I know it is a BIG step, I know it is not for everyone. Does someone really need to write an article every month telling me this?

It almost seems like they regret their choice to go pro, they slam poker and make their lives seem miserable. Well, guess what then quit. Quit! And that is the same advice I'd give to anyone else. If you go pro and don't like it, then [censored] quit. Just like anything quit and go back to your old job.

December 2+2 Magazine
"Playing poker for a living"

Playing poker for a living is a big step. It can be a hard life but some people like it and are successful at it. Make sure you have a backup plan if you try it and if you aren't successful/hate it then you can go back to your old job no harm done.

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his point is something along the lines that when folks hear poker is a hard way to make an easy living, a lot of folks go, well that doesn't apply to me--I love poker and I'm a solid winning player and moving from a hobby I spend a lot of time at, to a full time job won't be that big a change.

And his point is, no it really is that hard and yes, it's going to be that hard for you too. Not that his life sucks so bad that he wishes he hadn't done it.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, making money at 3/6 is easy for those who know how to do it. 50K a year seems like a reasonable estimate for online profit at 3/6. I understand that there are plenty of posters here who don't "get" Limit HE, but for those who do, this statement is taken as an easily understood truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I hear this all the time from folks like you who say 50k is a reasonable estimate. And sometimes folks through around numbers of what you would have to make to prove it. But I've actually only seen about two guys claim to have made 50k a year at 3/6 and one of them went out and got a regular job when the burnout hit.


Easily understood truth? I'll take it as a possible, but far more difficult, accomplishment than most people around her believe.

--Zetack

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've actually only seen about two guys claim to have made 50k a year at 3/6 and one of them went out and got a regular job when the burnout hit.

Easily understood truth? I'll take it as a possible, but far more difficult, accomplishment than most people around her believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone who averages $4000+ per month at 3/6 without playing some absurd number of hands should be moving up pretty quick. So what you will find is that no one who is good enough to prove this claim will actually stick around long enough to do so.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
I love you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you told me you loved me last night... what the hell?

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
I "recover" in minutes from a poker session

[/ QUOTE ]


Teach me your secret sir... personally, 6 hours of 6 tabling and I'm spent... I just want a good meal, a blowjob, and some sleep. And still, I don't feel "recovered." This is when winning, and losing *shrug*

I guess it gets better with time (actually, I feel that it has for me) but I still struggle with this a couple times a week.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

What you wrote was only true for you. My First 9 months as a full-time pro has not been anything but fulfilling. You should probably look to balance your life a little better. Myself, i take weekends off and spend it with my friends and girlfriend. If all you do is play poker than poker is your life not your job. Start treating it like a job and your life will improve.

Good luck, PITS

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

That is some damn good advice. I always do this with work though - let it become my life. This should change.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Man, I second this sentiment to fully.

I'm 43, been working since I was 14. If I could but make this work and get out of the rat race for good, you could never convince me that it was worse than the working world. Heck I spent the last 5 years staring at computer problems on a terminal at one of the biggest computer companies in the world. So what's the difference what computer screen I stare at, right?

If I could equal or multiply(!) my income doing poker online and never have to even drive in to work, not have to live in the freakin town where *they* decide to put the d'mn data center, etc. what's to complain about?

No bosses, no subordinates, no inventory, no dual occupancy cubicles with the doofus that puts his dirty feet up on the desk, no office politics, etc.. Geez, it's all the same attractions as online day trading. And probably requires a smaller bankroll.

But of course it has the same pratfall...."Is it *really* going to work for *you*???"

(Aside from the general fluctation issues, obviously.)

Geezus, if I could but make it work. And work soon! LOL!

[ QUOTE ]
2 years of working online at home. I love it baby. And I have enough interests, hobbies and girls to occupy my spare time. To Hell with the rat race.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Hi Miami32,
Well, I for one appreciate that you are giving non-polyana view of the whole thing.

However, I still say (and this is critical) *if it actually works for you* it still beats a "regular" job.

But it does have to work.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Making 50k is tough at 3/6. You would have to win two bb per 100 hands while 4 tabling 40 hours a week...At 47 weeks you should have your 50k....

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Everybody who agrees to this post. Please, grow up!!!! You are receiving great advice from the Two plus two magazine every month before trying something stupid and this is the answer you give.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Lol, yeah, listen to that guy!

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

i used to be able to relate to the way this article was written and to an extent i still do. during the time it took me to reach a level i consider satisfactory as a poker player i wasn't really able to focus on much besides poker ( i am, of course, always learning and trying to better my game but i feel i've reached a level at which i can be consistently profitable in order to sustain my lifestyle which has been an important goal for me ).

i've always ridden freestyle BMX for most of my life and i kind of fell off on riding ( a broken leg and hand didn't help that actually ), i've always been an artist and i basically stopped painting, etc... in a way it was good because i progressed from .25/.50 to 10/20 in a pretty short period of time but i also feel that if i maintained a better quality of life/total happiness i would have maintained a higher winrate during that time.

i recall reading in some poker book about poker players who scheduled vacations for themselves in order to stay on top of their game and i think that's really important. i'm going to travel around florida with my bike and not even think about poker for a month or two in january and then come back to NYC and hopefully feel really refreshed and ready to tackle the games again.

just remember that money is important and a lot of us reading this are VERY lucky that we're able to get by ( and in some cases become fairly wealthy ) without spending our days in an office working for someone but people who have jobs have something to take their mind off of their own mental health 8 hours a day. poker players dont have that and often become weird and kind of mentally ill ( or so it seems ). try to forget about poker sometimes and just have some fun.

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

[ QUOTE ]
The health point of your article seems pretty weak to me. If you play poker professionally on the internet, this would leave so much more time to get in fantastic shape than a normal job would.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, along with poor eating habits, that part of his story didn't make any sense. Someone who commutes and sits on their ass in an office 40 to 50 hours per week would have more excuses for poor diet and lack of exercise than someone who plays poker online at home. In his case, he must have other issues, because there's absolutely no way you can blame that on poker.

My diet and exercise habits are substantially better now than they were when I had "a real job."

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

I am not a professional poker player (or even a good one [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), but I have been making my income from the internet, both in offices and from home, for the last 8 years. I have been on both sides of this argument, from a $30,000 paycheck, to being much, much further in debt.

There is an old saying, "If you do something you love, you'll never work a day in your life."

I have found, like most "old sayings" that this is a half-truth.

I love a good video game. I love my job. I love golf. I love a lot of things. But if I force myself to do them 8 hours a day (because I don't eat if I don't), it's not likely to stay fun for very long.

When my business started going to hell, it was because I was putting in ridiculously long hours. I would go to sleep dreading waking up and having to do it all over again. Not exactly the best environment for creativity.

I am currently the happiest I've ever been in my life. I go to work (downstairs) when I feel like it. Without the stress, the urgency, the deadline, the ideas flow freely. When I have an idea, I put in those 14 hour days until it comes to fruition, because I'm love doing it, not because I'll starve if I don't. On average, though, I'd be pushing it if I told you I work more than an hour and a half per day.

So yes, like my business example, playing poker for a living has the potential to be a crap lifestyle, but it can also be a big, fat, opportunity to seize everything you've ever wanted. It all depends on how you approach it.

For example, the guy posting that he feels like s*** after a 6 hour, 6 table session is absolutely right. I wouldn't wish that on anybody. His eyes are shot, likely causing headaches. Would you like to get up each morning and say "Well, time to go to work so I can get a migraine, then I can go to sleep and do it all over again" ??

Now take someone that, instead of 6 tabling 3/6 for nearly a full work day, plays an hour or two of 20/40, and maybe an extended session once a week. When he's done, he goes off and enjoys the rest of his day. Smokes a cigar, bangs his gal(s), hits golf balls, plays with his kids... you know... lives life to the fullest.

Does that strike you as the kind of guy that is going to say that being a poker player isn't all it's cracked up to be?

So there's two types of goals;
a) To play poker for a living.
b) To make enough money from our hobby, just the way it is, to not have to work anymore.

The two goals are *very* different. One leads to "I can't handle it anymore!", while the other leads to "I don't have to handle it anymore!". Sure, getting good at 3/6 is a lot quicker and easier than getting good at 20/40. That's the catch. Few have the guts, patience, and determination to hold out for plan B. But those are the guys that will succeed, and live happily ever after.

Question is... what kind of guy are you? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: I Quit My Day Job
 

Before I begin with what I have to say I want to add some history:
-I've read 2+2 posts before and never commented until now.
-I've been playing on empire for a a couple years now and have done very well. My income from poker is solid and I've considered going pro.

But the one thing I don't hear anyone on this thread saying is that playing poker is unfullfilling. I work at a big company now and while I don't love my job it gives me pleasure to actually create something. When I play cards I'm always looking for weaknesses in my opponents and ways to exploit them. When I play, I don't create anything and I would like my life to mean something more than the guy who took money from weaker poker players. I've recently decided to not go pro because there is more to life than just playing cards. I agree with having hobbies and gfs is good. But no one mentioned anything about getting satisfaction from building or creating something. Am I alone? I could go pro if I wanted, but I would never create anything. I plan to continue playing to supplement my income because the money is good. But I'm still searching for a way to be productive.

Does anyone else who plays a lot feel this way?