just a matter of preference
 

3/6 nl - Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] effective stacks 700

Hero limps UTG, 4 limpers and blinds complete.

Flop (36): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets 16, BB calls 16, Hero raises to 70, MP makes it 225...

very simple hand, just wondering barring reads having a normal image, call and make move on turn or just push here and why?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

Push now. He doesnt look like he is folding, and we dont want a spade to come and ruin the fun. He might make himself believe we have a big draw, or he might not care and be happy to go to the felt with A9 here, and we wouldnt want to deprive him of that opportunity.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

It looks like a underset or a combo draw (pair + flush ?) It might also be top two but with only one Ace remaining in the deck its not that likely. Anyway you should push I think here with his possible hands.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

do you really think i can't stack him anyway if a spade comes??? i think pushing maybe lets him off too easy for his range (2 pair folds 99 calls 55 probably calls). and if he folds many of his hands here it is more profitable to wait for a spade not to fall (it usually won't) to c/r him all in on the turn...

Re: just a matter of preference
 

I dont even think he would fold a flush darw on 2 pair at this point. I push, but personally it looks like set over set and he wont fold now or on the turn.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

If you flat call on the flop are you checking to him on the turn?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

[ QUOTE ]
3/6 nl - Hero is UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] effective stacks 700

Hero limps UTG, 4 limpers and blinds complete.

Flop (36): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB bets 16, BB calls 16, Hero raises to 70, MP makes it 225...

very simple hand, just wondering barring reads having a normal image, call and make move on turn or just push here and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

unless he is a maniac and high prob of him bluffing, just push now so you can represent a flush draw.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

yah this one was boring but it made me think. in the hand i pushed and he called with A5 but if it were me in that limped pot (vs an UTG limper) i'm mucking anything but 99 in his spot i think. sure i could have 67 78 of spades type hand but that's the only thing he beats when i push. i think i let A5 off too easy good thing for me the guy wasn't very good.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

Call, lead out the turn. Much less strong of a line and more likely to stack villain.
P.S. When are you going to post the hands where you limp UTG w/AA and lose a medium-sized pot when you fold even though villain's hand is less clear because he doesn't know how strong you are? Every time you limp UTG w/AA it seems you flop top set and get a ton of action.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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P.S. When are you going to post the hands where you limp UTG w/AA and lose a medium-sized pot when you fold even though villain's hand is less clear because he doesn't know how strong you are? Every time you limp UTG w/AA it seems you flop top set and get a ton of action.

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LOL! i was thinking the same thing. seems like these are action tables and every time i have AA and limp utg it gets limped around, but then i flop set over set or set v two pair so it works out in the end.

so you'd call/lead turn... see my previous post, i really think i should not have pushed. did i mention i HATE playing out of position?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

Why are you limping AA?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

cause almost every pot was raised preflop and i was deep (450BB) and wanted to limp r/r or play a small pot.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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cause almost every pot was raised preflop and i was deep (450BB) and wanted to limp r/r or play a small pot.

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What hand range are you honestly limp r/r with?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

FWIW, Duck limp-reraises 99-22/air here once in a while to mix up her game.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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FWIW, Duck limp-reraises 99-22/air here once in a while to mix up her game.

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lol, and suited connectors. this man speaks the truth. i do it way more than i should, actually, but it usually gets enough respect.

etizzle have you seen me do this or are you just guessing from what i post here generally?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

Honestly, I really can't see any good reason to limp AA in this spot.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

i've been playing pretty aggro and people are giving me little respect. that said if i make a standard raise and low cards come and someone plays back at me it will leave me in a very tough spot pretty deep when others also have 200BB.

yes yes i know, play poker is what you would say. but it really sucks to have a read that someone is raising what they think is the best hand on some T85 flop and not knowing if it is a set or an overpair or what. so by playing a limped pot i can make it so there is less incentive to bluff/people play more honestly... and if i limp r/r i can make the pot big and have more definition to their hands by how much they raise preflop from where and if they call my limp r/r...

do you honestly not agree with any of this?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

well my post was a sarcastic reference to a post made in the "limp QQ preflop?" thread.

Plus you seem to be fond of limping AA preflop so you must be doing it with some other hands too.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

oh lol... just wondering if maybe you saw me yesterday at the 5/10 when i limp reraised 87s from UTG flop came 569 and i stacked 99 for a ridiculous number of big blinds, like 250. that was sweet. i=luckbox.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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do you honestly not agree with any of this?

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Yeah, I don't really agree w/ that rationale. I understand what you're saying, but I think we just approach the game with fundamentally different perspectives.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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so by playing a limped pot i can make it so there is less incentive to bluff/people play more honestly...


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You also give people less of a chance to put in a lot of money with a worse hand is the downside to this thinking.
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and if i limp r/r i can make the pot big and have more definition to their hands by how much they raise preflop from where and if they call my limp r/r...


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Or you can clearly define your hand moreso than raising UTG while making the pot harder to release and at the same time allowing your opponents to play perfectly with position and deepstacks.
Honestly, I think deep-stacked is the WORST time to limp r/r with AA-do you think you're going to stack 99-JJ on a board of unders after the limp reraise?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

yeah, that's probably true, good points. though it's quite possible that people still won't give me credit and if i can inflate the pot enough preflop i dont necessarily have to worry about being outflopped... but i think this applies more to 150BBs so in this case you might be right.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

push and let him impale himself with his underset

Re: just a matter of preference
 

Push and fast - MP has a big hand, probably a smaller set, and I don't think he's folding here while the turn can kill your action.

Kirk

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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Honestly, I really can't see any good reason to limp AA in this spot.

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Would you NEVER limp UTG with AA then? Surely, even if you don't like it, you have to do it sometimes, just to mix it up. If you NEVER limp UTG with AA or KK that gives your opponents a great read. (I think Brunson gives an example of this in Super System, doesn't he?) Isn't that at least ONE good reason for the limp El Diablo?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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Would you NEVER limp UTG with AA then? Surely, even if you don't like it, you have to do it sometimes, just to mix it up. If you NEVER limp UTG with AA or KK that gives your opponents a great read. (I think Brunson gives an example of this in Super System, doesn't he?) Isn't that at least ONE good reason for the limp El Diablo?

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OK, so you are saying I am giving something up if when I limp UTG, my opponents can put me on a range of hands that includes every possible poker hand except for two?

I have limped AA UTG in certain situations for very specific reasons, however, I really don't think I would be giving anything up if I NEVER EVER limped AA UTG EVER.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

Really, how often do you see someone re-raise the flop puting 1/3 of their stack in, and then fold?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

In straddled pots I limp AA from a lot of positions.

It's worked out pretty well.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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In straddled pots I limp AA from a lot of positions.

It's worked out pretty well.

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Straddled pots and other "special situations" are different. With the right super-aggros in the blinds, for example, I also limp AA a ton. But that's not what I'm talking about in my responses to this thread.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

Diablo,

In the games you play in, how many pots are not raised preflop?

I think everyone agrees that you do not want to give away information about your hand when you're out of position with deep stacks. Some feel that you should just raise a lot (all?) hands you play, others feel you should limp with all of them from EP. How much of this is just a reflection of the game each player typically plays in? If the pot is nearly certain to be raised behind you, then open-limping doesn't make much sense. But if many pots go unraised, then there are many more hands you might want to see a cheap flop with. So, it seems that to a certain extent, the proper play is influenced by how the rest of the table is playing. But I might be way off-base on this, since my personal experiences are still somewhat limited.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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others feel you should limp with all of them from EP.

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How can this be good?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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OK, so you are saying I am giving something up if when I limp UTG, my opponents can put me on a range of hands that includes every possible poker hand except for two?


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Yes. Whenever your opponent can rule out certain hands with certainty that gives them an advantage.

If you never limp with AA or KK UTG, and your opponents spot that, if you limp-reraise UTG, your opponents will know that they can push (rereraise) with just about any hand and you are going to fold, no?

I'll see if I can find that anecdote in Super System. Can anyone else recall the one I'm thinking of? It's a long time since I read it.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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OK, so you are saying I am giving something up if when I limp UTG, my opponents can put me on a range of hands that includes every possible poker hand except for two?


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Yes. Whenever your opponent can rule out certain hands with certainty that gives them an advantage.

If you never limp with AA or KK UTG, and your opponents spot that, if you limp-reraise UTG, your opponents will know that they can push (rereraise) with just about any hand and you are going to fold, no?

I'll see if I can find that anecdote in Super System. Can anyone else recall the one I'm thinking of? It's a long time since I read it.

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OK, so I should be limping AA/KK to protect from huge re-bluff moves when I have limp-re-raised the field.

Uh, yeah, I'm worried about that hmmmmmm, pretty much not at all. Perhaps you're playing every day with The Matador and Eddie Towne. I can understand your concerns in that case.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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OK, so I should be limping AA/KK to protect from huge re-bluff moves when I have limp-re-raised the field.


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I only gave that as one example. I could have given others. The point I'm making is that against decent opponents you have to mix it up sometimes. If you NEVER limp with AA KK UTG that enables them to rule out those hands when you limp, which in certain pots, in certain situations is going to give them an edge - maybe only a small one, but a small edge is better than no edge at all.

I also think that you are missing out if you're not limp-raising UTG with AA and KK on an aggressive table. Out of interest, what is your BB/100 with AA and KK?

I can't find that anecdote in Super System btw, (although I do note that Brunson is a big advocate of limping when first to act with AA/KK). Maybe it was in another book. Can anyone else recall the example I'm thinking of?

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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I can't find that anecdote in Super System btw, (although I do note that Brunson is a big advocate of limping when first to act with AA/KK). Maybe it was in another book. Can anyone else recall the example I'm thinking of?

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I can think of one where player A raises in EP, Player B calls, flop comes Jxx, Player A keeps betting, Player B calls him down, Player A has AJ and Player B has QQ. Player B says he knows Player A never raises AA/KK in EP so he was pretty sure his queens were good despite the strength shown by his opponent postflop.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

Its in Harrington on Holdem Volume 1. He says something along the lines of 'they know when you raise you might have AA but they definaly know when you call you don't have AA and thats too valuble a piece of info to give away.'

I agree with El D though. I can't believe you lose an edge by allowing opponents to know you don't have the top hand when you limp UTG.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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in certain situations is going to give them an edge - maybe only a small one, but a small edge is better than no edge at all.

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How much do I give up the times I limp w/ AA and they beat me w/ ragged two pair?

Please quantify how much I lose in those situations v. how much I gain by your "zero information leak" strategy.

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I also think that you are missing out if you're not limp-raising UTG with AA and KK on an aggressive table.

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Limp-raising UTG w/ AA and KK is often a complete joke at aggressive tables. You take down your little pots pre-flop. I'll open-raise, get-reraised, and stack 99 on the flop.

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Out of interest, what is your BB/100 with AA and KK?

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WTF, I dunno. I try to win at least $5,000 every time I have AA and KK, how many BB/100 is that?

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Maybe it was in another book.

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<yawn>

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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Out of interest, what is your BB/100 with AA and KK?

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WTF, I dunno. I try to win at least $5,000 every time I have AA and KK, how many BB/100 is that?



[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you should invest $50 in Poker Tracker.

Re: just a matter of preference
 

Really, how often do you see someone re-raise the flop puting 1/3 of their stack in, and then fold?

<raising hand>

I think you lose a lot if you just assume they can't. I have to know they can't before I'll just arbitrarily push in with the nuts. If they can, I wanna figure out how best to make money on the hand.

Whenever your opponent can rule out certain hands with certainty that gives them an advantage.

I can understand this, but you also have to be playing in games where your opponents see you all the time. Maybe some of you guys do, and in such a case I'd strongly suggest a rare limp EP with AA (maybe KK, but I'm less inclined to do that) to mix it up. But if you're not seeing your opponents REGULARLY, then it's not worth it.

Let's say you'll limp AA 5% of the time from the first three positions. You get them 1/220 hands, you have three positions to play them for. Correct me if my math's wrong, but that's basically saying you're gonna limp in those spots once out of every 1,450 hands you're dealt in those positions. And if there's an average of nine players at your table, that's saying you limp AA once out of every 4,400 hands. Are you sitting with enough opponents that will see you play 4,400 hands and see you limp your AA such that it improves the value you get from simply raising with them that one time?

i.e. Does the value you lose from the occasional opponent that has seen several thousand hands from you and knows you won't limp AA in EP outweigh the value you lose limping AA?

I don't see it unless you're basically playing with the same guys all the time, AND that all of them are deep thinkers/strong players.

- C -

Re: just a matter of preference
 

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Out of interest, what is your BB/100 with AA and KK?

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WTF, I dunno. I try to win at least $5,000 every time I have AA and KK, how many BB/100 is that?


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Maybe you should invest $50 in Poker Tracker.

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"Don't some of you guys ever wonder why there are so many players out there who are beating 30-60 thru 200-400 for more than you could, without knowing the satistical minutae that you do. Granted that is no big deal for the time being when you can play five 15-30 games online against morons. But still don't you wonder?"