How bad was this laydown?
 

It's been killing me. 2/5 NL
MP makes standard 3bb raise, I call on the button with 7,10o (I know, I think I'm Gus). 3 player take the flop.

Flop comes J 7 10. Sweet, got my 2 pair.

MP bets out $10, next guy folds, I raise to $30, he reraises me for all my money (we're able even stacked at $800 total).

Now I'm thinking damn it, did he weak-lead me with a set? Is he on just a flush draw? An overpair? Would he really move in with a hand like AJ?

So, long story, I folded like a big puss. The guy showed AJ.

Is there anything I can tell myself to make me think I'm not a complete moron. Obviously knowing what he had would have helped my call, but would a good player ever fold here? I know a bad play wouldn't consider folding for different reasons.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

This just comes back to a read. Know that he will overplay his hands like that and get it next time. If you hadn't seen him overbet like that before, it's hard to know what to do.

Also, don't call w/ that crap if you don't have a read on the opener. Even if you called the flop, you still lose the hand over 27% of the time...

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

I call the allin...too many hands push taht you're ahead of.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

where I really went wrong was not following through with my preflop plan. I called in position hoping a couple things.
1) an ace comes and he doesn't have one.
2) He's on 2 unpaired big cards and all low cards come on the flop.
3) I can flop a big hand and bust his big pair.

I hit a big hand just like I wanted to, but then didn't really want to play that big of a pot with it. That's what really made me fold, I wasn't looking to play that big of a pot in that spot. I gained some valuable info on the guy at least.

The only other thing I can say in my defense is of the things I put him on preflop, JJ was definitely one of them.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call the allin...too many hands push taht you're ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]
like what? I think calling here with bottom 2 is a pretty big mistake w/o read.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
where I really went wrong was not following through with my preflop plan. I called in position hoping a couple things.
1) an ace comes and he doesn't have one.
2) He's on 2 unpaired big cards and all low cards come on the flop.
3) I can flop a big hand and bust his big pair.


[/ QUOTE ]
Um, adjusting your read to what would be convenient based on the flop is a sure way to lose a lot of money. Thinking "I'm going to bust his big pair" and "I can win this pot if it comes down low cards because his AK is no good" and "if an ace comes I can push him off his hand" simultaneously seems to indicate that you're unhealthily obsessed with taking down the pot once you call preflop, as you're seeking to justify putting in money with 710 offsuit.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

IMHO, this is not just a matter of reads, but of note taking. Its important to know the range of hands he will open-min-raise with, and to know what his CB means. Watch the game when your not in the hand. Take notes. To me this is a typical example of AJ that has been sucked out on one too many times, or folded to a semi-bluff, or tired of being OOP when the scare card hits, so he over-reacts.

You're only a 2-1 favorite against anything but a set or better two pair so after you get sucked out on several times you may find yourself over-reacting just like this.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
where I really went wrong was not following through with my preflop plan. I called in position hoping a couple things.
1) an ace comes and he doesn't have one.
2) He's on 2 unpaired big cards and all low cards come on the flop.
3) I can flop a big hand and bust his big pair.


[/ QUOTE ]
Um, adjusting your read to what would be convenient based on the flop is a sure way to lose a lot of money. Thinking "I'm going to bust his big pair" and "I can win this pot if it comes down low cards because his AK is no good" and "if an ace comes I can push him off his hand" simultaneously seems to indicate that you're unhealthily obsessed with taking down the pot once you call preflop, as you're seeking to justify putting in money with 710 offsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't disagree with you more on this one Foxwoods. Call me crazy, but calling in position HU with trash cards is not always a bad play. Those three things I named came straight from a Negreanu article. It's playing the other guy, not the [censored] hand you have. I use the strategy sometimes and it's a great way to pick up those extra little pots that make a big differenc in the end. I would recomment playing 7,10, but if the situation is right it may be okay.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

the guy pushed his whole stack of 800$. it would be a terrible call. fold is fine. screw reads. a fold here is fine.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

I call here expecting to see AA-QQ a majority of the time. JJ isn't pushing in that spot very often.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

What range of hands make a huge overbet? JT? Maybe. 89 or JJ, doubtful. KQ or QQ+ also possible.

I probably call this 100% of the time though.

You guys shouldn't use the logic "He made a BIG bet therefore he has the NUTS!!!"

Would you fold JT here, or how about bottom set, how about top set? Are you only calling the allin with 98? They are all roughly equivalent, b/c I don't see how anything you are behind plays his hand like the way he did.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call the allin...too many hands push taht you're ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]
like what? I think calling here with bottom 2 is a pretty big mistake w/o read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me sit at your table, so I can make huge overbets anytime I want to take down a pot.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO, this is not just a matter of reads, but of note taking

[/ QUOTE ]

How are those two any different? Also, I think you saying that its a classic example of AJ overbetting because he's been sucked out too many times is very results oriented. This is an easy fold.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

Yeah but Negreanu is top-notch at reading hands and expressions. Just because Negreanu can outplay everyone at the table on the button with any two cards doesn't mean you can. You fold preflop precisely because you didn't know what to do here. Villain clearly sucks and you weren't aware of that fact going in.

What do you guys think about calling with a flush draw on board and folding if it's rainbow? While pushing with JJ (he could also have JT) doesn't seem likely, I've never seen anyone push this flop with AJ/QQ-AA either. I would have folded here in game but maybe I need to reconsider.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I call the allin...too many hands push taht you're ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]
like what? I think calling here with bottom 2 is a pretty big mistake w/o read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me sit at your table, so I can make huge overbets anytime I want to take down a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

keep risking everything in small pots with hands that have no effective outs vs the range of hands that could call you and we'll see what happens.

calling here with no read is bad. Once you have the read then obv that changes things.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

I would say if you're not going to make this call then you have ABSOLUTLEY no reason to be calling his raise preflop.
i would never call this raise preflop though.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

That's really my problem in my mind casmells. If I call preflop with this hand do I have to risk all my chips? I thought about that one and I think definitely not.

He could have called my raise, another couple bets and we play a $130 pot instead of a $800 pot.

Like the one poster said, no need to call off all my chips in that spot when they is a decent size range of hands I'm drawing basically dead against.

I think waiting for a better spot is the smarter thing to do.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
where I really went wrong was not following through with my preflop plan. I called in position hoping a couple things.
1) an ace comes and he doesn't have one.
2) He's on 2 unpaired big cards and all low cards come on the flop.
3) I can flop a big hand and bust his big pair.


[/ QUOTE ]
Um, adjusting your read to what would be convenient based on the flop is a sure way to lose a lot of money. Thinking "I'm going to bust his big pair" and "I can win this pot if it comes down low cards because his AK is no good" and "if an ace comes I can push him off his hand" simultaneously seems to indicate that you're unhealthily obsessed with taking down the pot once you call preflop, as you're seeking to justify putting in money with 710 offsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldn't disagree with you more on this one Foxwoods. Call me crazy, but calling in position HU with trash cards is not always a bad play. Those three things I named came straight from a Negreanu article. It's playing the other guy, not the [censored] hand you have. I use the strategy sometimes and it's a great way to pick up those extra little pots that make a big differenc in the end. I would recomment playing 7,10, but if the situation is right it may be okay.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you miss my point. I'm more than willing to play trash cards with position. But I like to have a decent guess as to what the other guy has, and not just come up with the perfect hand for him to have based on how hard I hit the flop.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's been killing me. 2/5 NL
MP makes standard 3bb raise, I call on the button with 7,10o (I know, I think I'm Gus). 3 player take the flop.

Flop comes J 7 10. Sweet, got my 2 pair.

MP bets out $10, next guy folds, I raise to $30, he reraises me for all my money (we're able even stacked at $800 total).

Now I'm thinking damn it, did he weak-lead me with a set? Is he on just a flush draw? An overpair? Would he really move in with a hand like AJ?

So, long story, I folded like a big puss. The guy showed AJ.

Is there anything I can tell myself to make me think I'm not a complete moron. Obviously knowing what he had would have helped my call, but would a good player ever fold here? I know a bad play wouldn't consider folding for different reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, a good player would fold here barring some read. Until you know more about what an opponent's willing to play with, not calling absurd overbets with bottom two pair is a decent policy.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

In my opinion, this is a marginal call since the only hand I would worry about is JJ here.

A lot of good players would fold here however simply because they would prefer to make the lower variance play given that in the long run this play would be marginally profitable. (I'd say about 85% of the time you're ahead here... and of those 85% you'd get outdrawn about 30% of the time and for the 15% you're behind... you're drawing pretty slim... maybe you'd win 10% out of the 15... that gives you .7*.85+.1*.15 that you'd be winner by the river. approximately 61% of the time)

This means, given my assumptions, in the long run you're calling 800 to make about 160 on average.

A lot of good players out there prefer better odds than 61% as they don't like high variance in their play and they try to avoid the 15% of the time that they are drawing dead. (this has to do with ego... it feels VERY VERY awful when you make a "bad" call)

In short, the laydown was probably "that" bad... although technically I think it was a call.

If it were up to me, it would all come down to how likely I think the player is to overbet the pot with a monster against which I am drawing close to dead. Somewhere in the 30% range that he got a monster against which I am nearly hopeless... I'd fold.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

you hit the flop, if your going to call with trash, then you need the guts to follow through if the flop hits you. however, it is difficult vs an all in bet. i think the preflop call is something you need to stop doing. furthermore, bottom 2 is very vulnerable. if he has aj, aa, kk, qq, etc, you can be counterfitted and you lose about 1/4 of the time with 2 cards to come.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

without a read i think the fold is fine. just adjust accordingly next time.

however, since you obviously didnt have much of a read on the guy yet, i dont see how you can justify your call preflop.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

i have now read all the posts. i want to return to calling with T7. what hands would he most likely raise with. AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ. that means there are 30 big pairs, and 32 AK AQ combos. forget you have a T, and forget 99, and AJs. you are 28 to 1 to flop 2 pair or better. in most cases you miss totally. if you hit one of your cards, your still a big dog if he has a pair (almost 50% of the time), or if he has AK or AQ and also hit a card (1/3 of the time). i think your expectation is so negitive that calling unless you know the player is very weak tight is a huge loser. Even vs a weak tight player, i think you need a much better hand. toss T7 and wait for something to play.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

Actually, this laydown is fine. The fact that he is willing to push with AJ here just shows he's easy money when u have the goods.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

Actually I mis-read the original post. I didn't realize all-in guy was opener. Depending on how he plays, I probably have to call. If it was not the opener I fold for sure.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

I definitely agree he had no business with T7 off preflop. but given the action (namely AJ opened) I'd say T7 is a marginal call on the flop.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

if what you say is true, then every "good" player would instantly call.

people say fold not because thye dont like variance, but they rather believe this is a negative EV spot.

I have no opinion of the fold, just your comment re: fold.

Re: How bad was this laydown?
 

TO THE PEOPLE ADVOCATING A FOLD.....nobody answered my question. What range of hands are you calling here? Are you folding JT? Bottom set? Middle set? Top set?

Let me know. Then explain your reason why you call with the hands you call. The reason you guys are advocating a fold here is because you put him on only like JJJ or 89 for some reason, so if that's the case, you should be folding middle set too. I just can't imagine any of you guys would advocate folding middle set here.

Please also let me know how often you see flopped top set or flopped straight make a 9x pot reraise allin after getting the smallest raise.

The ONLY hand you should be worried about IMO, is JT. ALL other hands that play it like this, I'd be really happy to get allin with. I wouldn't even be surprised to see AK make this play, they probably think they have 10 outs and lots of fold equity.