KQo and i\'m first to act
 

Ok 15/30 game. About two hours after this hand it turns into maybe the best live game I've ever sat in. That's irrelevant but I just wanted to throw that out there.

Folded to mike l. on the button who raises, I 3bet in the SB with KQ. BB folds and mike calls.

Flop is AKx with two spades, I have no spades. I don't remember what the x was but I remember that it wasn't important, probably a 7 or so. I bet and mike calls.

Turn is some card, maybe a 2 or so. I check and mike checks.

River is an offsuit 5. I bet, mike raises and I call without much thought.

Ok lay into me.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

I play it the exact same way. I do not think the river raise necessarily means an ace. If he had an ace he would have bet the turn.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

hey justin, i check/call the river. i don't think i'd call the river raise.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

"Ok lay into me."

You want 2+2ers on your left.

Other than that, I don't see anything for which to lay into you.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

Its hard for me to lay into you when I wouldve played your hand the exact same way on every street.
PREFLOP: Standard

FLOP: Standard

TURN: I love your check, by checking you take away any chance Mike can outplay you off the best hand.

RIVER: Autocall. Mike's hand is still not defined, but your hand is, he knows chances are that you have a marginal holding that you may not be able to call a river raise with, which means mike is probably raising this river with quite a few hands you can beat, He only needs to be bluffraising here a small percentage of the time(approx 12%) to make calling the raise correct given the size of the pot.

As far as should you of checked the river?? Im not gonna let Mike1 check down Kx or worse when I have the nut second pair so I would bet like you did, and Im certainly not gonna let him raise me off this hand on the river given the weird way he played his hand.

I think you played this hand as good as you can play it.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

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hey justin, i check/call the river. i don't think i'd call the river raise.

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Talking about the hand afterwards, mike said he's bluff raising that river about 0% of the time. The reason is that when I check the turn, it's a defensive check, and it's screaming that I want to get to showdown. Either that or I'm going for a checkraise with a strong hand in which case I'm not folding to a river raise either.

Given that I'm still uncertain whether bet/fold or check/call is best on the river.

Also there's one other line that we decided was super expert, any guesses?

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

Open muck when he calls the flop?

-DeathDonkey

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hey justin, i check/call the river. i don't think i'd call the river raise.

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Talking about the hand afterwards, mike said he's bluff raising that river about 0% of the time. The reason is that when I check the turn, it's a defensive check, and it's screaming that I want to get to showdown. Either that or I'm going for a checkraise with a strong hand in which case I'm not folding to a river raise either.

Given that I'm still uncertain whether bet/fold or check/call is best on the river.

Also there's one other line that we decided was super expert, any guesses?

[/ QUOTE ]
If mike says hes bluff raising there 0% of the time then obvoiusly bet fold is the best line.....but to be honest with you, I dont trust that statement [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
In general if you are unsure how to react if Mike does raise the river, then you are better off checking and calling IMO.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

I generally like it.

Bakku's suggestion to check the river is interesting. I think the value of checking is it avoids putting in 2 bets against an A and also may induce a river bluff.

The way you've played your hand, you could conceivably have a lot of hands on the river. You could have a big A (or even bigger) looking to screwplay the turn and have missed. (The old HPFAP line of checking the turn pretty regularly.) You could have a weak A and be looking to induce a bet from a weaker hand on the turn while avoiding spewing/getting played off the best hand. (Bet flop, check-call turn, bet river would be a very viable line with a hand like AXs). A smaller hand like a medium pocket pair is a bit less likely though betting a hand like TT on the river for the purpose of trying to fold a weak K or something like that is not entirely out of the question.

Mike will recognize that most of your hands though are probably in the KJ+ range, though. Because you do have some weakish hands in that range, raising becomes an option for him if he thinks you'll fold some Ks and such. Therefore folding to the river raise is not good in my opinion.

In turn, I think the river raise might come from a weaker hand often enough to make it better to bet the river than to check.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

this is one of those hands you want to get a cheap showdown with.. i might even check the river and if he has a K hes not going to check behind you, also he wont check a pair behind you probably.. but i call that river because hes probably thinking his K is good here. if he turns up a weak A oh well.. move on.. you didnt loose too much in this hand.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

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I play it the exact same way. I do not think the river raise necessarily means an ace. If he had an ace he would have bet the turn.

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an ace from a smart player will check this turn a lot knowing exactly what's going to happeon the river when the sb has KQ or KJ.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

i don't see anything wrong with this at all. which is likely a bad sign for you.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

If

[ QUOTE ]
it's a defensive check, and it's screaming that I want to get to showdown. Either that or I'm going for a checkraise with a strong hand in which case I'm not folding to a river raise either.


[/ QUOTE ]

is true

then

[ QUOTE ]
one other line that we decided was super expert

[/ QUOTE ]

Would have to be to 3bet the river.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

[ QUOTE ]
If

[ QUOTE ]
it's a defensive check, and it's screaming that I want to get to showdown. Either that or I'm going for a checkraise with a strong hand in which case I'm not folding to a river raise either.


[/ QUOTE ]

is true

then

[ QUOTE ]
one other line that we decided was super expert

[/ QUOTE ]

Would have to be to 3bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hey justin, i check/call the river. i don't think i'd call the river raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Talking about the hand afterwards, mike said he's bluff raising that river about 0% of the time. The reason is that when I check the turn, it's a defensive check, and it's screaming that I want to get to showdown. Either that or I'm going for a checkraise with a strong hand in which case I'm not folding to a river raise either.

Given that I'm still uncertain whether bet/fold or check/call is best on the river.

Also there's one other line that we decided was super expert, any guesses?

[/ QUOTE ]

justin, i think i've changed my mind to bet/fold. mike is almost never betting the river w/ a worse hand when you check to him but will call with worse hands.

also, i think the super expert line is to c/r the river and fold to a 3-bet. bet/3-betting is too spewy, imo

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

no it was for him to c/r the river. i would be forced to fold a lone A if he did that. but a lot of this has to do with how we play live and our perception of each other's game.

anyway when i call the flop it's pretty clear i have an A or some weak draw like a gutter ball or paired the low card on the flop. the check on the turn by me is a defensive check. it's either a hand to weak to call a river bet, or an A. justin's 3 betting standards from the sb here are pretty high. he's not just doing this with any hand.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

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anyway when i call the flop it's pretty clear i have an A or some weak draw like a gutter ball or paired the low card on the flop.

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Why not a K? I think you'd be defensive with a K also.

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justin's 3 betting standards from the sb here are pretty high. he's not just doing this with any hand.

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He's the SB and you're likely stealing. I'm guessing pairs wise for him it's 88+ to get the BB out. How does his pf 3 bet mean he's not beat and autobetting and your flop call means you could only have an A?

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its hard for me to lay into you when I wouldve played your hand the exact same way on every street.
PREFLOP: Standard

FLOP: Standard

TURN: I love your check, by checking you take away any chance Mike can outplay you off the best hand.

RIVER: Autocall. Mike's hand is still not defined, but your hand is, he knows chances are that you have a marginal holding that you may not be able to call a river raise with, which means mike is probably raising this river with quite a few hands you can beat, He only needs to be bluffraising here a small percentage of the time(approx 12%) to make calling the raise correct given the size of the pot.

As far as should you of checked the river?? Im not gonna let Mike1 check down Kx or worse when I have the nut second pair so I would bet like you did, and Im certainly not gonna let him raise me off this hand on the river given the weird way he played his hand.

I think you played this hand as good as you can play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is why I love poker. All this tricky deception within a hand.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

i haven't played mike 1 but once he raises this river aren't you good approximately never?

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

I think Mike played it really well.

On the river I just can't figure a worse hand than yours that Mike plays like this and that will call a river bet, other than maybe a weaker K. Since the odds are better that he has an A OR that he'll bluff bet the river if checked to, I think a river check/call is the way to go.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

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i haven't played mike 1 but once he raises this river aren't you good approximately never?

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Yeah pretty much. What i failed to distinguish is that mike will mix in a river bluff raise, just not in this particular situation.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think Mike played it really well.

On the river I just can't figure a worse hand than yours that Mike plays like this and that will call a river bet, other than maybe a weaker K. Since the odds are better that he has an A OR that he'll bluff bet the river if checked to, I think a river check/call is the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think mike played it well also. Turns out the 5 on the river made him 2 pair with A5. He said he was just calling the river if he didn't improve. I thought the hand would be interesting from his perspective if he had not improved and still raised the river. Anyone think that's a good idea?

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

For his river check-raise to be right, you'd have to have a lone ace and be willing to abandon it for one more bet when you've already put in two. I don't see it as an expert play at all, given that you checked behind on the turn and then raised the river. When a player does that, 99 times out of 100 he either had a monster on the turn already, or improved on the river.

Couldn't your call or the flop and check behind on the turn have meant you had a king?

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

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no it was for him to c/r the river. i would be forced to fold a lone A if he did that.

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Justin checking BOTH the turn and river would be so fricking weird that i'd never fold an A EVER. but i play bad.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

Interesting way to play the hand, after you check the turn I'm betting my ace. I don't like the idea of checking here to get a bet later since many worse hands then KQ can take this line. But with the way the hand turned out I couldn't see someone quit betting an ace on the turn after reraising preflop so I would raise you after checking behind on the turn. I personally think Mike checks behind any kind of hand at all and will bet any ace or better or rags.
Therefore, I like the bet/fold line here because your going to pay off his bet anyway but lose bets when he checks behind with worse hands that would call you like medium pairs. If he raises you I think your always behind here with the exception of a pure bluff, but that takes a lot of balls in limit. It basically comes down to... will Mike chase you HU with absolutely nothing post flop? If so I take the check/fold route. If not and he has something I like my choice in bet/fold because he's gonna cheap showdown when your ahead and bet when your losing.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

Andy and PokerBob,

There's some confusion here that's my fault. What I meant is that I think the best line may have been to bet both the flop and turn, and then CR the river. I agree that CRing the river after checking the turn is a spew.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

anyway this is only a good play against me in particular. almost anyone else will just randomly call you with anything they were willing to bet the river with that wasnt a bluff.

Re: KQo and i\'m first to act
 

Nice post Justin and nice play Mike. I liked reading about the defensive check strategy.