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- - Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible. (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=395115)

Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

Recently i dropped back down from 10/20 and 15/30 games to 2/4 to perfect my game. After 10k hands I'm doing fine at 2bb per 100 hands, but this morning I decided to calculate the amount of rake I payed at low limit. As it turned out at 2/4 I am paying 7 cents per hand or $7.00/100 hands. Almost 2 big bets per hundred hands. It's pretty clear this accounts for a substantial portion of what would be a players winnings at this limit, and many players that might be break even or slight losers would be doing better if the rake wasn't such a large portion of the pot. Rake back will help conpensate this disadvantage, but even at 30% RB you're still paying $5.90/100 hands which is substantial.

If you have a bankroll that's even decent and ability you should be moving out of low limit as soon as possible.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

The rake has always been bad at low limits. However, not everyone can make this up by moving to a higher limit. The games have a different character and your win rate may turn into a loss rate. I think this is sound advice if you are winning at 5/10+, but often poor advice if you are just barely beating 2/4.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

does this thread really have over 4000 views?

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

Almost 2BB per hundred hands isn't "bad" it's impossible for average players to overcom. I hear what you're saying but 2/4 isn't really profitable with a rake that big unless you can beat much higher limits, and if you just stay in 2/4 you will never learn the concepts that higher limits require. Sooner or later you will have to learn them IMHO it might as well be sooner than spending forever trying to build a 400BB bankroll out of a 100 bucks when you're paying $7 per 100 hands just to play.

You can start off playing tighter than usual and reduce your variance by not raising in more marginal situations.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

what stakes do rake % change at? and how much money would an average 15/30 player be paying compared to the 2/4 player?

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

I'm a luckbox but I started with a $250 bankroll late August and am up to $2750. I play $2/$4 and $5/$10 (I've played some $3/$6 but 5/10 seemed easier [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img])

It's all about being a bonus whore [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I'll slow down at 5/10 but the goal is to hit 10k by June so I'm not screwing around with lower limits

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

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Almost 2BB per hundred hands isn't "bad" it's impossible for average players to overcom.

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well then they're not ready to move up to higher levels as you propose. I'm certain you won't find a winning player at higher limits who couldnt beat the rake at 2/4.

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Sooner or later you will have to learn them IMHO it might as well be sooner than spending forever trying to build a 400BB bankroll out of a 100 bucks when you're paying $7 per 100 hands just to play.

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who's playing 2/4 on a $100 bankroll? this is just more confused logic

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You can start off playing tighter than usual and reduce your variance by not raising in more marginal situations.

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Playing like this will almost guarantee you lose at higher levels.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

If you think most 2/4 players start off by depositing a grand or more you are seriously mistaken, and I find the difference now a days between 2/4 and 5/10 to me minimal at many tables. A year ago there was a big difference but today many 2/4 games are like 5/10 games

And as you said yes most 2/4 players can't beat higher limits it's true. I'm sure quite a few who can beat a 2/4 can't beat higher limits. That's why you need to move up to get better and make more money.

THE ANSWER IS NOT PLAYING FOR MINIMUM WAGE WITH A RAKE OF $7 /100 hands

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

I'm confused - isn't 5/10 higher than 2/4?

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

You are a troll, and a stupid one at that. Who ever said $1k was a big enough bankroll for $2/$4 let alone a higher limit? The biggest difference between 2/4 and 5/10 is the swings will be 2.5x as large, and probably more than that because the players are better overall.

If the question is "I have $10k and have read several poker books, would it be more profitable to play 10/20 than 1/2?" then the answer is yes. Obviously. But most players don't start with that kind of scratch, and the better players at the higher limit will eat them alive much quicker than the low limit's slightly larger rake. You simply don't get as many people coldcalling and limping with terrible hands to make up for the rake reduction.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

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If you think most 2/4 players start off by depositing a grand or more you are seriously mistaken

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whether they're depositing it or earning there way up to it, if they're not playing with a proper bankroll, they're not playing winning poker, they're gambling. And suggesting to this type of player that they should move up is not in their best interests.

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and I find the difference now a days between 2/4 and 5/10 to me minimal at many tables.

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If you've played a significant amount of hands at both limits and seriously believe this, I'm starting to understand where your flawed logic is coming from.

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THE ANSWER IS NOT PLAYING FOR MINIMUM WAGE WITH A RAKE OF $7 /100 hands

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thats how most of the successful players on this site started.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

Look most players spend way to much time playing low limit instead of moving up, and most of the time you take a shot at the higher limits without a massive bankroll, you can always drop back down. I know plenty of people who have been playing low limit for a couple of years and that is a waste of time. After a while you need to move up in limit to significantly improve you game. Keeping playing 2/4 all you want but you're playing 4 minimum wage and not learning much after the first 20 thousand hands or so assuming you spend time studying the game.

And yes recently I've played in many 2/4 games where 80% of hands are raised preflop and the average pot is 3 way. If you don't think the games been getting tougher u need a reality check.

Where I'm coming from is this. I started with 300 bucks online playing low limit I made more and kept moving up. Inside of 5 months I was playing in 10/20 and 15/30 games. A year after that I had been dabbling in 30/60 and the occasional 50/100 game.

Yes there were plenty of times when i got wacked because I wasn't use to the higher limit and ideas needed, but I learned them quickly, and when I started playing some 30/60 and 50/100 I got wacked good a couple times becaue the game is different/harder, but the fact of the matter is you cannot just overprepare to death before moving up because YOU CAN'T BE READY FOR IT, BECAUSE YOU'VE NEVER DONE IT B4.
You need to take a shot a higher limits from time to time because you will learn at least 5x faster than playing some low limit game.

Playing higher limits is how you get better and the better you get the more you win. PLAYING FOR MINIMUM WAGE IS A WASTE OF TIME AFTER YOU'VE LEARNED THE BASICS.

I don't even believe focusing on winning is that correct in poker. Of course over the long term if you are good that's what happens, but it's a result not a cause. Winning is the result of playing better than your opponents and playing enough hands to let that come through. Play good poker and winnings will come. I moved up quickly and became a better player in 6 months than most do in a year or two because I played higher limits, NOT JUST TO WIN BUT TO GET GOOD and at times it was a short term financial sacrafice but the long term gains have paid for it many times over.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

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I don't even believe focusing on winning is that correct in poker. Of course over the long term if you are good that's what happens, but it's a result not a cause. Winning is the result of playing better than your opponents and playing enough hands to let that come through. Play good poker and winnings will come. I moved up quickly and became a better player in 6 months than most do in a year or two because I played higher limits, NOT JUST TO WIN BUT TO GET GOOD and at times it was a short term financial sacrafice but the long term gains have paid for it many times over.

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What do you think 2p2 low limit players are doing here? Playing hands, posting questions about decisions they didn't understand, getting feedback, taking those lessons and applying them to the game, and seeing what happens. Over time, they get it, they have a bigger bankroll, and they move up.

I agree that some lessons can't be learned at 2/4. Some of the skills and plays you'll make and see at higher limits are totally inapplicable in a lot of 2/4 games. However, if you haven't mastered the lower game, you'll still be making fundamental mistakes that better players at higher limits will just devour.

Furthermore, moving up too fast and "learning" as a losing player at a high limit is an expensive price to pay. Moving up steadily always leaves you with a solid bankroll to handle the swings and a solid grasp of good poker skills. Moving up to a high limit in a short time could teach you something, but you may not be there long enough to understand what's going on. Or you may not have a good enough undersanding of it yet. Or you might run good and get stuck with some bad habits, then start losing and attribute it to a bad run and before you know it you are way down.

Finally, glad you were able to learn so much more than the rest of us so fast. Wish I were that smart. Must be why I'm still playing 5/10.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

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Recently i dropped back down from 10/20 and 15/30 games to 2/4 to perfect my game.

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What does this mean?

FWIW I don't think most posters here should be in a hurry to move up.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

I agree with your subject line. I don't agree with your reasoning (if the rake at 2/4 were unbeatable, nobody would play it. The fact of the matter is, many people beat the 2/4 game, and its rake, for a very good win rate). And I think you need to devote a lot more thought on what exactly constitutes "as possible".

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Look most players spend way to much time playing low limit instead of moving up, and most of the time you take a shot at the higher limits without a massive bankroll, you can always drop back down. I know plenty of people who have been playing low limit for a couple of years and that is a waste of time. After a while you need to move up in limit to significantly improve you game. Keeping playing 2/4 all you want but you're playing 4 minimum wage and not learning much after the first 20 thousand hands or so assuming you spend time studying the game.

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Different people have different goals. There are people who make a living by multitabling 2/4. Could they make more money by moving up in limits? Probably, but they would then have to devote more of their money towards bankroll and endure greater variance (in terms of dollars, obviously, but also in terms of BBs as the competition gets stiffer). They're comfortable with that game and with the lifestyle it provides them. Much the same as a person who enjoys his day job and turns down a promotion which would earn him more money, but create inconveniences and lessen his overall job satisfaction.

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And yes recently I've played in many 2/4 games where 80% of hands are raised preflop and the average pot is 3 way. If you don't think the games been getting tougher u need a reality check.

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I'll buy that. I haven't played 2/4 very recently, but I have noticed that it's tougher to find good games at 5/10, pretty much since the Party/Skins split. I'm not sure how this supports your argument, though, as the difference is almost certainly present at every limit, and not just small/micro stakes.

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Where I'm coming from is this. I started with 300 bucks online playing low limit I made more and kept moving up. Inside of 5 months I was playing in 10/20 and 15/30 games. A year after that I had been dabbling in 30/60 and the occasional 50/100 game.

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I started off with $20, playing .02/.04. Inside of 10 months I was playing 15/30, and almost even had the proper bankroll to do so. After the inevitable downswing, coupled with some personal expenses, I dropped back down to 1/2 and 2/4 to work my way back up. Six months later, I am now comfortably bankrolled for 5/10 again and eyeing 10/20. I know exactly where you're coming from on moving up quickly.

However, all false modesty aside, people like you and I are the exceptions to the rule. We learn quickly. We think well on the fly. Somewhere inside, we were born with a certain amount of what it takes to be a successful poker player. That is not true for the majority of poker players. Those people need more time to learn, may the lack the discipline to stick within their bankroll or shrug off losses, or may not have the confidence to move up to a new limit after only 10 or even 5 thousand hands. I'm not saying I'm a great player, mind you--just saying that I have learned quickly to be a good enough player to beat the limits that I've played.

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Yes there were plenty of times when i got wacked because I wasn't use to the higher limit and ideas needed, but I learned them quickly, and when I started playing some 30/60 and 50/100 I got wacked good a couple times becaue the game is different/harder, but the fact of the matter is you cannot just overprepare to death before moving up because YOU CAN'T BE READY FOR IT, BECAUSE YOU'VE NEVER DONE IT B4.
You need to take a shot a higher limits from time to time because you will learn at least 5x faster than playing some low limit game.

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I played tennis in high school (yeah, I know--a real jock). I improved my game a lot faster when I played against people who were better than I was. The difference is, when those better players mopped up the court with me (and they did, regularly), all it cost me was an hour or two of sweat and a loss.

By moving up to a new limit in poker before you're ready, it can cost you a lot of money. I know you don't dispute this and pretty much inferred that in your paragraph above, but it needs to be stressed because many people who play poker, especially small stakes, can't afford to lose that kind of money. Even if they've done well enough at 2/4 or 3/6 or what have you that they are properly bankrolled for a jump up, they may be planning to cash some of that money out. They may not be able to take the emotional trauma of losing a month's worth of 3/6 profits in a few hours of 5/10 play. That's what I mean when I say that you need to better define "as possible".

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Playing higher limits is how you get better and the better you get the more you win. PLAYING FOR MINIMUM WAGE IS A WASTE OF TIME AFTER YOU'VE LEARNED THE BASICS.

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"The basics" change as you move up in limits. I'm sure you're aware of this. And getting better at poker isn't exactly going to make you more money if it busts you and/or shatters your confidence.

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I don't even believe focusing on winning is that correct in poker. Of course over the long term if you are good that's what happens, but it's a result not a cause. Winning is the result of playing better than your opponents and playing enough hands to let that come through. Play good poker and winnings will come.

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On this point, I agree with you 150%.

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I moved up quickly and became a better player in 6 months than most do in a year or two because I played higher limits, NOT JUST TO WIN BUT TO GET GOOD and at times it was a short term financial sacrafice but the long term gains have paid for it many times over.

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Congratulations on your run. Now, put on a different hat and consider what would have happened to your game and poker career if you'd hit a massive downswing right after moving up to 15/30.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

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Recently i dropped back down from 10/20 and 15/30 games to 2/4 to perfect my game.

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What does this mean?

FWIW I don't think most posters here should be in a hurry to move up.

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Yeah, I agree. Moving down to $2-4 to perfect your game sounds silly to me. I take it you moved down because your bankroll got clipped pretty hard and now you're in a rebuilding phase. It sounds to me like you moved up too fast. 10k hands isn't enought know what your talking about. No offence...I'm just warning other readers not to get over-impressed by your story and start taking shots that are way over their head.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

Uh-huh. According to this article Freddy Deeb turned 60 dollars into 100k in one poker session. Who cares? To me, these kinds of events have the same entertainment value as bad beat stories.

Needless to say, I think your advice is terrible and comes from a minimal knowledge base. The rake at 2/4 is very very beatable. The extremely loose or extremely aggressive players pay more than their share of the rake, because you are in less pots and don't give as much loose action as they do. On top of that, you get RB from their generous contributions to the drop.

Also, playing 2/4 is much much better than minimum wage. I can't believe you said playing 2/4 makes you minimum wage. You've heard of multitabling, right?

Like Harv said, congrats on your good run. But I think your experience or advice doesn't apply to anyone. (yourself included maybe?)

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

a lot of 2/4 players are adept bonuswhores too, so the hourly rate of a good 2/4 multitabler is a lot lot higher than "minimum wage."

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

OK I'll bite:
What should I do with my $1800 b/r? I was thinking of getting to $2400 before moving up to 3/6. Bad plan ya think?

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

3/6? Psshaw!
If 100 dollars is too big a bankroll for 2/4, then your 1800 bankroll is already too big to be playing anything below 30/60.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

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OK I'll bite:
What should I do with my $1800 b/r? I was thinking of getting to $2400 before moving up to 3/6. Bad plan ya think?

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3/6 Full on Party is quite different from 2/4 Full. You're probably going to have to relearn a lot of stuff as well as learning a lot of new stuff. This includes blind stealing, defending your blinds, isolating bad players, isolating blind stealers, playing against raising stations, learning how to play the flop and turn, plaing overcards and stuff. Basically you relaly have to improve your post flop play and start thinking a lot more. Putting your opponents on hand ranges and making the best decisions with limited amounts of time. You really can't autopilot most 3/6 tables like you can at 2/4.

I suggest you play some shorthanded first starting at 1/2 or 2/4 at Stars. Go on a bonus whoring expedition playing shorthanded at exotic sites. Learning how to play shorthanded is +++EV for your full ring game.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

I would appreciate if everyone that thinks they are good enough to win at 10/20 and above would please start playing at those limits asap. kthx.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

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3/6 Full on Party is quite different from 2/4 Full. You're probably going to have to relearn a lot of stuff as well as learning a lot of new stuff. This includes blind stealing, defending your blinds, isolating bad players, isolating blind stealers, playing against raising stations, learning how to play the flop and turn, plaing overcards and stuff. Basically you relaly have to improve your post flop play and start thinking a lot more. Putting your opponents on hand ranges and making the best decisions with limited amounts of time. You really can't autopilot most 3/6 tables like you can at 2/4.

I suggest you play some shorthanded first starting at 1/2 or 2/4 at Stars. Go on a bonus whoring expedition playing shorthanded at exotic sites. Learning how to play shorthanded is +++EV for your full ring game.

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Thanks, I have played a bunch of 1/2 SH on Paradise already though. I have to say I fall into the "it's still just poker" camp. They're full of donks who don't adjust their PFR standards at all, and I don't know how much that experience will help me in preparation for 3/6. I've heard Stars 2/4 has good SH games, maybe I'll check that out for B/R sake. Party is rigged.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

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Party is rigged.

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In my favor.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: (7.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 9.20 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 3h 4h (three of a kind, fours).
CO has Jc Ac (one pair, fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 9.20 BB.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possib

I can sooooo top that:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
5 folds, MP3 raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (13 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP3 folds, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB
Main Pot: 14 BB, between Hero and SB. > Pot won by Hero (14 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB has Ks Kh (full house, jacks full of kings).
Hero has Jc Kc (four of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 14 BB. 

Poor guy says after the hand, "nice....you had 3 outs and hit all 3 of them".

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

Well no my bankroll is doing fine. About a month ago my computer crashed so I lost my old poker trackers and decided to start my new poker trackers beginning at 2/4 to see if I would find any leaks to plug or ways to improve my win rate.

I like the idea about playing short handed. About a year after I started playing short handed mostly 10/20 and you can definately make absurd amounts of money considering many players will bluff bet up to and including the river, and the average hand is much weaker, so running into AA and KK is much less likely. Be warned you can't wait for premium hands though, and the downswings are worse also.

Look I did learn quickly, but I spent a lot of time studying the game. Reading every book i could, replaying every hand I though i missed a bet or should have gotten away from, and reviewing the majority of hands I had on pokertrackers. IF THAT'S NOT WHO YOU ARE WHY ARE U ON THIS SITE POSTING? If you take the time to post and read other peoples you should be taking the game seriously.

I'm not saying everyone should move up now, but SPENDING A YEAR OR 2 PLAYING LOW LIMIT IS TO MUCH, and if you can't beat a low limit game after a solid year that you truly studied the game you should quit the game it's not for you, play recreationally but not to make money.

And when I first moved up I had days when I got swatted, but U CAN MOVE BACK DOWN, at least playing higher limits from time to time.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

SNOWBALL you've been a member of this site since when? OH YES THIS YEAR, and you think my experience is limited that's a joke. I would consider over 200,000 hands of play enough experience for me to comment on the small stakes forum.

IF YOU READ MY FIRST POST YOU MUST HAVE NOTICED I EVEN ACCOUNTED FOR A GENEROUS 30% RB AND IT WAS STILL $4.90 per 100 hands.

And thanks a lot after all these years I've never heard of multi tabling wow. What u play 4 tables say 50hands per hour for each that's a whopping $16 an hour if you can win 2bb per hundred hands which few people can do.

THAT IS MINIMUM WAGE PLAYER WHO WILL NEVER BE GREAT BECAUSE HE WON'T EVEN TAKE A SHOT AT HIGHER LIMITS. Drop back down if it doesn't go well but take a freaking shot.

Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

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SNOWBALL you've been a member of this site since when? OH YES THIS YEAR, and you think my experience is limited that's a joke. I would consider over 200,000 hands of play enough experience for me to comment on the small stakes forum.

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This from the guy who brought us such gems as what are your stats?

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Re: Why small stakes players should move up in limit as soon as possible.

lol 1.6k hands, nice find. I can see why OP seems out of whack to the usual tpt'er, but I think his intentions were for good in making this thread. It was basically just the wrong way to say on tpt to learn to play well and take shots when you can, but be able to move down when necessary.

.... Now lets all go play 20/40