Ring Game or SnG
 

Currently I am a micro-limit ring game player. I can see that as I become better, I will play in higher limit cash game and try to maintain a good winrate. That's where the money come from. As I am reading through the forum I also learned that there are also these pros who play SnGs and do very well. How does that compare to ring games? What are the pros and cons?

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

I imagine it depends on where your talents lie. Although I am a ring game player, anecdotally, I have found SNG's to contain less variance. Many SNG players seem to agree with this. SNG's are more interesting- that is for sure. However, I can't 4-table them competently so I prefer to stick with the regular games.

Check out the 1-table tournament forum for more qualified responses than mine.

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

Thanks a lot.

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

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However, I can't 4-table them competently so I prefer to stick with the regular games.


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Once you learn the basic skills, SNGs are MUCH easier to multitable at the lower limits than ring games. 4-6 tables of SNGs is relaxing for me, 3 tables of 6-max ring is mayhem.

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

true, multitabling sngs is much easier

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

I used to do ring games and now I do SNGs almost exclusively.

Limit ring games and NL SNGs use a different skillset IMO. I have known people who can do both, some that can do one but not the other. It just depends on the person.

I personally switched from ring to SNGs to try and lower variance and because SNGs are more interesting to me. However, IMO SNGs are more difficult to do well. Some would argue this, but limit ring games are much more standard in how they play while SNGs (and all tournaments really) have a number of other factors that don't come into play in ring games (e.g. blinds, stack size, etc.).

I don't think either is better, but I think some people are more suited to one over the other. I would recommend playing some SNGs and see which you like better.

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

Thanks for your reply! Actually when I started this thread I didn't even realize that most SnG games are NL. Guess I will wait a while before I give it a shot.

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

I play mostly SNG's (low limits $2+.20 etc) and find them to be very beatable. If you are thinking about trying this I would also recomend that you check out the single table forum and search for posts from AleoMagus. He has a lot of great info and even has a great formulatic approach to get you started that is very effective. Can't find the link right now or would post it.

Good luck

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

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Thanks for your reply! Actually when I started this thread I didn't even realize that most SnG games are NL. Guess I will wait a while before I give it a shot.

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Don't be intimidated by the NL factor. In the lower limit SNG's you can often times just let people hang themselves and limp into the money. Limit tourneys demand that you catch some cards.

Interesting thread. I've played a fair amount of SNG's with good success but just for fun. Now you guys got me wanting to try 4-tabling them again.

I know that it is difficult to quantify but what is the generally agreed upon hourly ROR, say, playing 5 22's per hour?

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

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I know that it is difficult to quantify but what is the generally agreed upon hourly ROR, say, playing 5 22's per hour?

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ROR usually means risk of ruin. You might mean ROI, return on investment.

The ROI in the 22s varies from structure to structure, and also from player to player. At Party, you start with 800 chips, and the blinds increase relatively rapidly. Few people report a ROI over 30% ($6.60 profit, or $33/hour), and many report a much lower win rate. It could be that it is possible for a player to win significantly more even in Party's rapid structure, but anyone with those skills usually either moves up or starts to multitable enough to push the ROI down.

Note that it takes hundreds of SNGs to get an accurate estimate of your ROI. The SD is about 1.7 buy-ins, so the 95% confidence interval is roughly results +- 340%/squareroot(# tournaments).

My ROI is higher at other sites with slower structures, e.g., PokerRoom, Ultimate Bet, PokerStars, and Bodog.

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

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Interesting thread. I've played a fair amount of SNG's with good success but just for fun. Now you guys got me wanting to try 4-tabling them again.

I know that it is difficult to quantify but what is the generally agreed upon hourly ROR, say, playing 5 22's per hour?

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This is often a subject of much heated debate in the 1-table Tournament forums. From personal experience and numerous posts from the STT forums, a 15-20% ROI is a good rate for the $22s at Party/Empire/etc.

Now, some will claim that 30% is very doable, etc. While I believe that some posters can and do maintain this level of ROI, I believe it is the exception rather than the rule.

While ring games seem to have a higher variance, don't be fooled that there is no variance in SNGs. Runs of 500-1000 SNGs with a losing ROI for known very good players are not that unusual. Dropping 15+ buy ins is not unusual either. I merely post this, due to the fact that such questions get posted frequently in the STT forum and often times the OP gets flamed for asking questions that get asked multiple times a week (e.g. 'I just dropped 19 buy ins over the last week! Is this normal? I thought I was a winning player, but... etc.')

Posting questions about your ROI, whether you are a winnnig player, etc., in the STT without having at least 500-1000 SNGs will generally not be taken too seriously. As in ring games where you really need 50k+ hands to know much, you need a decent sample size of SNGs to make good judgements.

Many of my above comments are pretty basic, but since the question is a fairly basic one I thought I'd cover a few other points as well.

Hope this helps.

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

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Few people report a ROI over 30% ($6.60 profit, or $33/hour)

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is this 4-table number? How long does a standard SnG last?

In a few 10+1 limit SnGs I played, I did OK and more important, the game looks familiar to regular ring game. Today I watched some NL SnGs, most actions are preflop. People went all-in with hands like A5o or K7s, crazy.

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

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Few people report a ROI over 30% ($6.60 profit, or $33/hour)

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is this 4-table number? How long does a standard SnG last?

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I assume you are asking about the figure of 5 per hour. That was assumed by the previous poster. I think Party SNGs take an average of about 40 minutes, but this depends on your playing style, since you can affect the probability of getting knocked out early. SNGs on other sites can take much longer.

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Today I watched some NL SnGs, most actions are preflop. People went all-in with hands like A5o or K7s, crazy.

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That's primarily a result of the short stacks in relation to the blinds. NL cash games would be similar if everyone had 6 BB.

Re: Ring Game or SnG
 

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is this 4-table number? How long does a standard SnG last?

In a few 10+1 limit SnGs I played, I did OK and more important, the game looks familiar to regular ring game. Today I watched some NL SnGs, most actions are preflop. People went all-in with hands like A5o or K7s, crazy.

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Most of those who post results of 30%+ ROI multi-table.

How long does an SNG take? Depends on the site you play. At Party/Empire/other skins at the lower limits with 800 starting chips they tend to average around 45 minutes or so for most people. On the other hand if you play at say Poker Stars in their standard 1 table SNG, then you can expect the average time for a SNG to be closer to 75 minutes. Times at other sites will vary somewhere between these two figures for the most part.

Pushing with A5o or K7s often seems to be crazy to limit ring players, but there are many times when pushing these hands is very good solid SNG poker. That is part of why in one of my earlier posts I said that some people play ring and NL tournaments well, while others are good at one but not the other. Tournaments can create many situations where pushing with 32o or calling an all-in with 32o are correct plays. Yet when a person new to NL tournaments sees such plays, they think 'Man that guy is an idiot! I can beat these games EASY!'

Beating SNGs for a 30%+ ROI is anything but simple or easy. People who quad+ table and maintain a 30% ROI are like ring players who quad+ and maintain a 3+ BB/100 rate. They are the exception rather than the rule.

Something else to consider with SNGs is that the higher in limits you go, the more difficult it becomes to maintain a higher ROI. While a 20% ROI at say the Party $22s is a solid rate, doing the same thing at the $215s+ would be incredibly good.

This isn't meant to be condescending so please don't take this post that way, but beware trying to set your sights on the top rates attained by many of the best posters in these forums. Many of them have years and years of experience to attain their current rates. Expecting to meet the rates attained by top posters is not really realistic.

Hope this helps some.