Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Forgive me if this is posted in the wrong area.

I am almost 20 years old and taking a break from school. I started playing internet poker for money back in November, I had some ups and downs at first but since about February it has been almost entirely up. Between February and April I won about 700 dollars playing poker at levels around .25/.50 and .50/1 with about 3.8BB/100. In April I took a $215 deposit and turned it into 1200 within a few weeks. I had to cash out all but 20 dollars to pay some expenses.

I currently have a part time job(10-20hrs a week) which I am using to fund my poker account. My parents are on my ass telling me that I need to get a real job with health benefits where I am working full time and have a "future" and am doing something "productive". I explained that I was going to try to play poker as a living as soon as I got my bankroll sufficient to play 2/4. My parents laughed at me and said that less than .1% of the population is successful playing poker.

So I pulled out my Poker Tracker stats and showed my BB/100 over the last 30k hands at the varying limits. I explained the concepts of EV and multitabling and how much money I could reasonably expect to make.

They kept insisting that poker is based on luck and I kept giving examples to refute it. Then they changed their argument to the fact that I should be doing something to "help" society. I am intelligent and have always done very well in school, and they want me to use my intelligence to better mankind. I brought up how they had always taught me to find something I enjoy doing and the money will come. I said that I really enjoy poker and make a good amount of money doing it so why shouldn't I try to make it a full time thing. They talked in circles for a bit and finally I ended the conversation.

Ive been thinking that the reason they don't want me playing poker for a living is because they want to be able to say they are proud of what I do. They do not have any problems with my playing poker for fun or to supplement my income, but they want me to have a full time job. Is there any way I can convince them that poker:

A) is skill based
B) uses my intelligence to an extent that keeps me satisfied
C) is something I enjoy and am successful at

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Your parents are right. Probably not what you are looking to here but that's the truth.

There is absolutely no reason you can't play poker and finish school while having a decent job. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a part time job and playing poker for secondary income, you're parents should be able to agree to that. Funding your poker playing with income from work is pretty stupid though. You should be able to pay all bill with income from your job and use poker income for everything else, this is the ideal set up.

Once you get to the point where having a job is a futile waste of time - I.E. you have 9 months of living expenses saved up + your additional bankroll, then just playing poker while you go to school is fine, and by that time your parents should agree.

Poker playing makes a lousy career but a great hobby.


There is no need to try to convince your parents of anything - they won't be, period. You can do both, the only reason not too is laziness, you know it.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

I'm an english teacher who travels to other countries to teach (currently in Mexico). I enjoy playing poker and have found a hobby that pays for itself and then some. But if I had to play 8-10 hours a day everyday to support myself I'd blow my brains out. There's a lot of jobs that you can do which would be more fulfilling than poker (and pay better). Playing poker hour after hour isn't fun, it's a grind. Stay in school and find something that you would be interested in doing for the rest of your life.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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You should be able to pay all bill with income from your job and use poker income for everything else, this is the ideal set up.

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I am pretty close to achieving this, my part time job does take care of 90% of my monthly bills and poker easily covers the other 10%.

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There is absolutely no reason you can't play poker and finish school while having a decent job. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a part time job and playing poker for secondary income, you're parents should be able to agree to that.

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I have no intentions of not returning to school. I discovered the past semester that my heart just wasn't in school and I was not working nearly as hard as I should have and my GPA dropped because of it. I then decided that I should wait until my desire to learn has returned again.

I am content having a part time job while playing poker, but my parents really want me to get a 9-5 job.

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There's a lot of jobs that you can do which would be more fulfilling than poker (and pay better). Playing poker hour after hour isn't fun, it's a grind. Stay in school and find something that you would be interested in doing for the rest of your life.

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I dont find playing poker hour after hour to be a grind, but that is just me. I don't believe that I have seen any jobs for which I am qualified where the pay is better than $32 an hour(assuming I 4 table 2/4 with a 2BB/100 winrate). In fact 32 x 8hr x 5 days x 52 weeks= 66560 per year. I am a aerospace engineering major and it is something that I am VERY interested in doing for the rest of my life. The average starting pay for an Aerospace engineer is roughly 45000 per year. So assuming that I can continue to win at 2+BB/hr/table I would make more than if I went into my chosen field. The only reason I am not continuing to pursue my degree is because I don't want to be spending money on college if I am not going to be putting my full effort forth. I like to do the best that I can at whatever I do and I just can't do that at the moment.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

I'm sorry for being blunt with someone I obviously don't know, but then the problem seems to be you, not your parents. They seem to be completely right then. They said they want you do more with your life, and you just said that you are unable to focus on things you know you should be doing.

I was not saying poker was a grind (it can be, but I dont find it so). It's just not rewarding. You never really get a sense of accomplishment. Poker is just money, treat it as such. Thats why I said get a job you want and play it on the side. You can have a rewarding job and not have to live like a pauper.

You are right about that most jobs now aren't worth it to you compared to poker - I certainly understand and agree with that. Find a happy medium with a prt time one and work on your poker. Make sure you work on bankroll management as your #1 skill, prove to yourself you're not some degenerate gambler. Keep records of everything. Never take money for bills and expenses to pay for poker. And never rely on poker winnings in order to pay bills unless you have an absurd amount stashed away.


You're capable of doing this. As you continue on your way you ma find you lose interest in poker and enjoy a normal job, or you may find the opposite to be true. There is no way you'll ever know for sure unless you do both for a while. Don't pretend you do already.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

I've been through the same thing. I'm 20 years old but am still in school. I go to Michigan State University and am about to get a degree in Physics.

My mom says the same things your parents do, and I just gracefully take her words of wisdom. That's not a bad thing to do, "just smile and nod."

Don't patronize your parents though, they may not think like you or I. I find it to be a great way to pay bills and to support any expenses I have. I think you're good to persue a career in poker, but I wouldn't think you should try it just playing 2/4 limits. Pick up other games as well. Once you get better at more games, you can get a game anywhere, generally at any time. Especially online...maybe try big multitable tournies. They're a great way to makea lot of money. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

JMB

PS, don't tattoo something poker related on your forearms, parents will hate that

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

I didn't read your whole post, but I did notice you want to go pro as soon as you're beating 2/4? I'd recommend waiting until you are playing 10/20 or 15/30 or higher. If you plan on 4-tabling or 8-tabling, sure you'll have a good hourly rate, but it's so tough to put in the hours doing that, and you won't improve very fast. Whatever you decide to do, good luck.

Bob

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

It isn't something I SHOULD be doing RIGHT NOW though. Education has and still is very important in my life. I pride myself on my education and intelligence. I decided that I needed a break from school before I ever started taking poker seriously.

My parents aren't happy with me having a part time job and playing poker on the side. A 9-5 job that I am qualified for would be a complete grind. I could always get a job waiting tables or at Best Buy or something, but my parents are pushing me to look for jobs with the federal or state government. Jobs where I would be an underpaid file clerk.

Given the above, let me rephrase the question. How do I convince my parents that I don't need to have a 9-5 job with the government to be "doing" something with my life?

Alex, I really appreciate your advice on bankroll management and hopefully I can follow it without trouble.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

My posts didn't mean that I wouldn't take shots at upper levels. They were made based on a game I know I can beat already with a good hourly rate. I enjoy playing several tables for hours at a time, that may change if I were to start doing it on a daily basis. If I were to make poker my sole income I would gradually move up through limits once I became sufficiently bankrolled and money was set aside for expenses and bills for the month.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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It isn't something I SHOULD be doing RIGHT NOW though. Education has and still is very important in my life. I pride myself on my education and intelligence. I decided that I needed a break from school before I ever started taking poker seriously.

My parents aren't happy with me having a part time job and playing poker on the side. A 9-5 job that I am qualified for would be a complete grind. I could always get a job waiting tables or at Best Buy or something, but my parents are pushing me to look for jobs with the federal or state government. Jobs where I would be an underpaid file clerk.

Given the above, let me rephrase the question. How do I convince my parents that I don't need to have a 9-5 job with the government to be "doing" something with my life?

Alex, I really appreciate your advice on bankroll management and hopefully I can follow it without trouble.

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How do you do it? Easy. You put your money where your mouth is. You move out and pay all your own bills solely on your own income from playing cards not depending on your parents for anything.

Until you live under your own roof and self sufficient, you're under their watch and rules. Get a job, play on the side until you save enough to go alone.

Good luck.

b

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Bernie is right, if you are supporting yourself, F your family if they don't accept it. Seriously, just like you don't want to keep friends who don't accept you, you should just dismiss your family if they don't approve of who you are. "Hi Mom, I play poker for a living, and when I get beat real bad I try to make it all back playing blackjack. Deal with it."

-Michael

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Hahah, well good point. I get along great with my family outside of this instance and would prefer that they understand and allow my choices rather than dismiss them as absurd and force their opinions on me. Not to mention I have to pay my own tuition and adding expenses to those I currently have does not help me do that in any way. It would be very nice if I could make a healthy living while living at home so I can set aside my tuition and maybe even start an IRA.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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In fact 32 x 8hr x 5 days x 52 weeks= 66560 per year. I am a aerospace engineering major and it is something that I am VERY interested in doing for the rest of my life. The average starting pay for an Aerospace engineer is roughly 45000 per year.

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Yeah, but that aerospace engineering job will have all kinds of benefits that poker won't. You'll have insurance, employee pension plans, and pay less in taxes, at the least. You'll also have paid vacation time, which you won't have playing poker. If your heart just isn't in the school thing right now, then okay, but thinking that you'll make more playing 2/4 than in engineering is pretty stupid.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Hi there,

Your parents' argument has turned from "poker is luck and irresponsible gambling" to "do something with your life". My parents' argument has turned in the same manner. And both sets of parents have a point. If all anyone ever does in life is sit at a computer at home playing a game, I think we all can agree that it's not exactly the most noble expression of offering ourselves to society. This is your parents' point.

Many people associate what you do with who you are. I told a girl friend of mine that I was seriously considering playing poker professionally. Her answer was, "Oh, but you could be so much more in life." This bears the misconception that your profession defines you. You can argue to your parents that it's not what you do, but who you are that matters in life. If you played poker for income, but spent time in your local community serving, coaching, leading, whatever, and also gave some of your money to charities, then your parents would see the balance they desire to see. Of course, with your intelligence, they want your profession itself to be something considered noble since you'll spent the majority of your time doing it. Perhaps you could be a volunteer lawyer (lol) or a campaign manager for the governor...something involved in politics or government that wouldn't consume too much time, but would satisfy their quench for your pursuing an honorable profession.

An argument for the poker profession being honorable would be the example of Daniel Negreano. His achievements in poker afford him the ability to give vasts amounts of money to the poor and other charities, tell the story of how God has saved him from his sins, and speak at varying community engagements.

No matter how you look at it, you wont make your parents happy unless you are a well-rounded person, as they define it.

Just some thoughts.

M

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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A 9-5 job that I am qualified for would be a complete grind.

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Just remember that poker will probably be the same way.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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I have no intentions of not returning to school. I discovered the past semester that my heart just wasn't in school and I was not working nearly as hard as I should have and my GPA dropped because of it. I then decided that I should wait until my desire to learn has returned again.

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I would caution against this line of reasoning. It is my opinion that you are less likely to return to school the longer you are away from it. For what its worth, I agree with your parents. I don't mean to be patronizing myself, but by completing your degree you will always have something on which to fall back on, if the poker thing doesn't work out. The other poster makes a very good point regarding benefits you receive with a full time job, including healthcare, retirement, and paid vacation.

I wish you luck in whatever decision you make. Please take into consideration the advice people are trying to offer you here.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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Hahah, well good point. I get along great with my family outside of this instance and would prefer that they understand and allow my choices rather than dismiss them as absurd and force their opinions on me. Not to mention I have to pay my own tuition and adding expenses to those I currently have does not help me do that in any way. It would be very nice if I could make a healthy living while living at home so I can set aside my tuition and maybe even start an IRA.

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So you want your parents to subsidize your living expenses while you play poker all day?

You need to grow up. Little boys try to please their parents. Grown men make their own decisions and support themselves.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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You need to grow up. Little boys try to please their parents. Grown men make their own decisions and support themselves.

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Grown men can make their own decisions with one factor of consideration being what would honor the parents who brought them into the world and raised them. Although one doesn't "have to" please one's parents, knocking the desire is foolish; one day, you'll have children and it will inevitably please you if they respect your opinions and take your views into consideration.

M

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Leaving an aero engineering program to play 2/4 (or whatever) would almost certainly be the worst financial mistake of your life.

And this "I want to go back at somepoint, I just need a break right now" is exactly what every dropout in my program said on their way out the door.

Put poker on the side burner for now. Finish your degree and get a solid income. Supplement it with poker. That's my formula and it works fantastically well. I have a solid, variance free income that pays the mortgage and takes care of all the basics. I have poker to spoil my wife and I with extras and things for which we don't need a guaranteed check every month. We wouldn't have anywhere near the lifestyle we have if I tried to do poker alone as a living. Trying to give that up for a poker only living is just unimaginably stupid IMO.

I'm also trying to imagine how fast I would have been laughed out of the lender's office when I needed a mortgage to buy my current home if I said I was a professional gambler. This house has appreciated $250k in the past 2.5 years. Not to mention the health insurance that we need now that my wife is pregnant. There's lots of financial benefits to a stable job that aren't immediately obvious. Don't overlook them.

These may not be concerns on your mind right now, but they will be, and it may be too late for you once they are.

eastbay

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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You need to grow up. Little boys try to please their parents. Grown men make their own decisions and support themselves.

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Grown men can make their own decisions with one factor of consideration being what would honor the parents who brought them into the world and raised them. Although one doesn't "have to" please one's parents, knocking the desire is foolish; one day, you'll have children and it will inevitably please you if they respect your opinions and take your views into consideration.

M

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I do have children (a son). it will please me if he grows up and acts like a man.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

I see the exact same post 5 times a week. If you want to 8 table 2/4 stakes on a computer for a living then go right ahead. I have the chills just thinking about it. I'd rather be a librarian. I might atleast have some insurance and won't have to deal with arthritis from too much clicking.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

If playing poker for a living is a good decision, we must make the assumption that the games will be excellent for a long period of time (I would say at least 10 years, allowing you to play, build a bankroll, and invest in other things during that period). If you believe this to be true, then surely waiting two years to finish school before you start playing full time should not be a problem. Does that make sense?

It is very tough to motivate yourself to go back to school after being gone for several years. Go now, make your parents happy, play part time and put all your winnings into a bankroll, and when you graduate in two years (if poker is still strong) you can jump into a high enough limit game to make a quality income. If you go broke, then you go to work.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

I'm pretty much in the exact same situation. Luckily, I'm in Canada, so I don't have to worry about getting a job for health insurance.

I'm turning 20 in a few months, and I just finished my second year of undergrad. I pretty much convinced my parents by explaining that playing poker this summer can get me through undergrad without having to take a loan, and I should be able to help with my brother's and sister's education in a few years. I'm certainly not proud of my job, and I even got an easy volunteer job as a cover, but this is something I have to do. It would be really stupid to pass up what I think could easily be around 100k over the summer, so I'm just going for it.

I think my parents have accepted it and are ok now after the first month, but it was certainly tough to convince them. Of course, everyone is different, and your parents will look at poker and the world in a different way than mine, so your path to convincing them may have to be something else. I don't think I'd try playing full-time during the summer at 2/4 limit though. I'm playing 2/4 NL (moving to 3/6 tomorrow), and I'm feeling burned out playing about 10k hands per week (about 4 hours/day). 2/4 limit would really be a grind. I think it may be better to suck it up and get a job this summer, while working at poker during the night. I don't really know limit, but I think 10/20 would be about equal to 2/4 NL, and that's quite sufficient as far as income goes.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

I'm also trying to imagine how fast I would have been laughed out of the lender's office when I needed a mortgage to buy my current home if I said I was a professional gambler.

Not that I'm disagreeing with the basic premise of your post (I'm not, that's exactly my situation), but you wouldn't be laughed at at all if you had the 2 years of Tax returns to demonstrate steady income any more than any other self-employed person would be laughed at.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Your parents are right. You should actually listen to what they are saying and take it to heart rather than treating it like some debate and trying to outwit them with clever counter-arguments.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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I am almost 20 years old

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

I don't think that you are going to convince your parents that it's a good thing to play poker in the short-term. If you are living at home, and taking a semester off of college, then I can see why they might be a little concerned that you are taking a big interest in playing poker. If, on the other hand, you were in college and playing part-time, and you were doing well in school, they might not be as concerned. If you were to get out on your own (I got the impression you were living at home), it also might not be as much of an issue.

They might also change their minds later if you are able to obtain a very high degree of success playing poker. It doesn't sound like an easy short-term situation though.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Your parents are right. They are merely trying to save you from a life of misery, addictive gambling, and having to associate with a group of people who are generally moral degenerates from the bottom rungs of society.

Go to college, get a good education, and get a real job that will be productive rather than destructive member of society.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Hi blackize. I play poker for a living and understand your struggles. However, I cannot stress enough to finish school and work a full time job! You need to establish yourself first (i.e. establish good credit, buy a home,...etc.). School and work will equip you with skills that will help you become a better poker player as well as give you a sense of contribution (as your parents mention). While establishing yourself, you can play when you have free time and work on your game. If you get to a comfortable financial situation (5,10,15 years maybe)....then, and only then, should you begin to decide whether you want to do for a living. Your parents are looking out for you. I wish you well.......

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

While I agree that playing poker for a living isn't the best idea for most people, now IS the best time to give it a shot. I'm sick of hearing people (my family too) saying: "poker will always be there your whole life, focus on X job or getting a good education, etc). Well poker might be there but it might not be as good (fishy) as it is now. The real truth is, if someone wants to get an education, college will always be there. And education continues to improve, while poker may not. Sure, going to college at age 31 or 32 isn't the best idea either, but neither is playing poker against a table full of pros. Of course, it IS probably hard to get a mortgage being a pg and not having health insuarnce would suck.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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you wouldn't be laughed at at all if you had the 2 years of Tax returns to demonstrate steady income any more than any other self-employed person would be laughed at.

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I think that's not true. I think you will be held to a much more stringent standard (if you are given a real chance at all) if you list your profession as gambling than the vast majority of self-employed people. You have to understand how many people consider professional gamblers to be social deviants on the edge of self-destruction, even if they were ok for a couple of years.

Yeah, ultimately they just want to know you can pay, so if you've been making mad coin you'll probably be ok. But I don't think you're on a level playing field given all other things being equal.

I don't have the direct experience to back this up, other than general life experience.

eastbay

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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While I agree that playing poker for a living isn't the best idea for most people, now IS the best time to give it a shot. I'm sick of hearing people (my family too) saying: "poker will always be there your whole life, focus on X job or getting a good education, etc). Well poker might be there but it might not be as good (fishy) as it is now. The real truth is, if someone wants to get an education, college will always be there. And education continues to improve, while poker may not. Sure, going to college at age 31 or 32 isn't the best idea either, but neither is playing poker against a table full of pros.

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I guess it depends on where you want to get a degree from. I'm not sure an application from someone who's been playing cards for 5-10 years is really going to make a mark on the admissions committee at a selective program.

Similarly, I think you will face serious problems in selling yourself on the job market when your background is card playing.

Card playing is not much of a foundation for a next step. College is. That's the difference.

eastbay

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

I usually don't agree with people this easily, but good points.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

School is not really that difficult. If you do not start skipping classes for poker you'll be in the clear.

Just another point of view...

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

For the long term, poker as a career, don't even think about arguing with your parents now. It will just make them worry. Don't bring up the issue until you're ready to commit and have proven that you can make enough money to support yourself comfortably.

For the short term, I highly recommend playing poker as opposed to getting some remedial job. They don't give you health insurance and paid vacations at McDonalds. Your parents won't like the idea that you will be sitting at home all day (I know, I took a year off from school too) so just stay out of their hair and try to get out of the house every once in a while. You could also donate some money to charity to dodge the "better society" argument, even if its just for some trivial amount.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

LOL I just finished my first year of school and missed a lot of class and because of poker, which was a horrible idea. Although playing freerolls and $5 tourneys was a good time, it was still -EV. But, maybe it wasn't so bad after all. During finals week I won a $10 MTT at pokerchamps that got me on a win streak that saw me come from 2k in debt to 1k in the black.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

Well almost all of you have said to go back to school or to work full time and play poker on the side. And while I respect all of your opinions, getting a full time job(at least the kind my parents insist I get) is of no interest to me at the moment nor will it be until I finish college. I plan on going back to school next spring.

It seems I have little choice but to give in and get a full time job. Since I dont have nearly the savings or income to move out on my own at the moment I dont have any other choice.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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I don't believe that I have seen any jobs for which I am qualified where the pay is better than $32 an hour(assuming I 4 table 2/4 with a 2BB/100 winrate). In fact 32 x 8hr x 5 days x 52 weeks= 66560 per year.

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Firstly, 2BB/100 does not equal 2BB/hour, since you will only be dealt approx. 65 hands per hours. Assuming that you can win 2BB/100 across four tables, which is a big "if" from someone who hasn't even begun playing 2/4, you are talking about making closer to $20 per hour.

Secondly, your calculations assume that you are going to play forty hours per week, fifty-two weeks per year, with no vacations? That's a pretty lofty goal from someone who right now is working a part-time job and struggling to maintain interest in his schoolwork, which I imagine is way less of a grind than you will find multitabling poker for forty hours per week.

In conclusion...either listen to your parents, who have the ability to look further into the future than you, or do as Bernie suggests and simply make your adult choices while accepting the consequences of your decisions.

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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Firstly, 2BB/100 does not equal 2BB/hour, since you will only be dealt approx. 65 hands per hours.

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You can easily get more than 100 hands per hour online. Even 2 tabling. Im not sure what you meant by your statement above.

b

Re: Poker as a living. How to deal with my family?
 

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You could also donate some money to charity to dodge the "better society" argument, even if its just for some trivial amount.

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Screw charity at this point in time. If he really wants to show his parents something, take that amount you say he should give to charity and give it to his parents as rent. That will go quite a ways in his parents eyes. Giving to charity isn't a sign of self sufficiency. Trying to pay your own way is. Even if it's a small step.

b