Folding KK Before The Flop
 

A strange hand to be sure, but I actually was faced with this situation in December of 2004.

No Limit Hold'em SNG, $100+$9, 10 handed, Blinds 10/20.

First hand (All 10 players have 1000 chips).

Heroine is in Big Blind and is dealt K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

SB (t1000): Posts SB 10.
BB (Heroine t1000): Posts BB 20.
UTG (t1000): Bets 1000 (All-In).
UTG+1 (t1000): Folds.
UTG+2 (t1000): Folds.
MP1 (t1000): Folds.
MP2 (t1000): Calls 1000 (All-In).
MP3 (t1000): Calls 1000 (All-In).
CO (t1000): Folds.
Button (t1000): Folds.

SB (t990): Calls 990 (All-In).
BB (Heroine t980): Folds.

Comments?

( Please have some mercy on me...I suffered a head trauma in November, 2004! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] )

Have a great night! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

My immediate thought was I fold in a heartbeat, but I thought it was intriguing enough to run some numbers.

Mathmatically I assume I'm up against at least a pair of aces and a naked ace. Hopefullly thats AQ and not AK.

Against AA, AQ, JJ and QQ you're almost exactly a 20% favorite to win this hand, so if your preference trends towards maximizing your $$$/hr you can make an argument towards calling even if you knew you were up against AA.

Against AA, AA, JJ and QQ you're a little more than a 21% favorite...

However, if one king has been burned (somone's got AK instead of AQ) you drop to 11%, underneath QQ and JJ (since they've got two outs to your one).

I can't see any way this wouldn't be a fold... unless everyone's just insane. At a $5+1 or $10+1 i might call but can't imagine at a $109

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

OK, I'll bite. Kind of interesting even if it was imagined.

You are very close to having pot odds to call even if someone has Aces.

Decreasing marginal utility of chips counteracted by very high big stack advantage if you win.

Fire it in there.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

Where the hell do you find tables like this??

And yes, I fold.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

That should always be the call.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where the hell do you find tables like this??


[/ QUOTE ]

Hi! I wish I knew. I had never been in a 109 that started that way before, and have never have been in another since. By the way, I finished second in that one...in about 33 minutes. 3 were sent packing in the first hand, to the Small Blind's AA.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

Thank you! -Sharon.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

As it turned out, there was a K in the flop, and a call would have won the pot. I did finish 2nd in that one, though, sooo I was okay with that. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where the hell do you find tables like this??

And yes, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

Thank you very much! -Sharon.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

Good fold, even if you have pot odds against AA, you can't make money in 5-3-2 payout-structure SnGs by taking gambles which result in you being knocked out on the first hand 80% of the time. It is just impossible.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where the hell do you find tables like this??

And yes, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi. I wish I could find another one...or two...or three...or...

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good fold, even if you have pot odds against AA, you can't make money in 5-3-2 payout-structure SnGs by taking gambles which result in you being knocked out on the first hand 80% of the time. It is just impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi. Sooo true! Have a nice night!

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
As it turned out, there was a K in the flop, and a call would have won the pot. I did finish 2nd in that one, though, sooo I was okay with that. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew I was giving the g00t advice. I was the only one that says call and I was the only right person.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

Mmmhmm. And...Mmmm. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Have a great weekend! -Sharon.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

This is a semantic point, but---- I definitely don't use the word "favorite" in the same manner as you.

For example... in a situation where I have a 45% chance to win vs. 1 opponent who has a 55% chance to win, I would never say that I'm a 45% favorite.... I would say that I'm a 10% underdog (dog, actually)... or that, my opponent was a 10% favorite.

I believe--- and someone correct me if I'm wrong-- that the word favorite is, and should be, reserved for speaking about the person who is actually ahead in the hand (the one who is in fact the "favorite").

It's kind of a silly point, but I've been drinking, and after reading your post I had to run the numbers myself-- even though I knew there was no way that the OP could have been a 20% favorite...

And now I've made a stupid post about it....

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good fold, even if you have pot odds against AA, you can't make money in 5-3-2 payout-structure SnGs by taking gambles which result in you being knocked out on the first hand 80% of the time. It is just impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. I have been saying this as long as I can remember.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

If you're interested in maximizing +$EV situations, ROI, and $/hr, I think you make this call.

If you are timid about the buyin, and want this game to LAST, then fold.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

unless I know one of the players is you, i'm calling, everytime. If it's donks or unknown players you can't put them on AA accurately enough to fold this.

Have YOU had any recent head trauma ilya? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]

Have YOU had any recent head trauma ilya? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. Was wondering the same.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're interested in maximizing +$EV situations, ROI, and $/hr, I think you make this call.

If you are timid about the buyin, and want this game to LAST, then fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you winning more than 33% of the time?? because if ure not, calling is kinda moronic.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

What did the others had?
Dzsenaj

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

Who is in your avatar?

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

never

not even then

never

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a semantic point, but---- I definitely don't use the word "favorite" in the same manner as you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct. I should have said "you win this hand 20% of the time" etc.

Re: Folding KK Before The Flop
 

Don't be the bad egg! hahaha