domesticating chimps. why not
 

I was watching animal planet yesterday and there was a piece on chimps being endangered and going extinct. I got to thinking and it seems like chimpanzees would make a great animal to domesticate, perhaps even better than the wolf. They are smart, can be toilet trained and bond with humans. Plus they could be trained to do all sorts of helpful things that dogs can't do while still providing security.

So why haven't humans ever set about domesticating the larger monkies? Putting aside the animal rights concerns doesn't this seem like a worth while endeavor?

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

two words:
planet of the apes

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

They'll steal your stash and [censored] your woman and laugh about it.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

I think the issue is that chimps are so intelligent and share so much of our DNA that there are ethical questions with treating them like pack animals or dogs. It's pretty amazing the range of personalities and capability to learn these little critters have shown.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

They only work with very young chimps, basically just kids, in movies and t.v.'s because they get very cranky, even vicious, past just a few years of age. Biting stars and scratching them up actually does happen. They are also very strong even at a year or so old, so by the time they get a few years on them, they can basically tear us to pieces if they get the notion. And since their hostility and territoriality rises markedly as they come into sexual maturity and age, the notion they just very well might get. It's not worth the risk.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

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I think the issue is that chimps are so intelligent and share so much of our DNA that there are ethical questions with treating them like pack animals or dogs. It's pretty amazing the range of personalities and capability to learn these little critters have shown.

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Yeah I'm sure this is alot of it. I wonder if facing ever decreasing numbers would change that at all. Is having domesticated aragatangs or chimps better than having non or very few at all?

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

Blarg brings up excellent points as well. Think Sigfried and Roy, but with the added ability to use blunt objects as tools...

Edit: Which pretty much gets us to mostsmooths point.

Edit2: Except chimps can probably count to 4... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

Sure, chimps are among the smartest of animals, no arguing that. However, intelligence isn't necessarily the end-all quality desired when training and domesticating an animal.

A primate requires a TON of effort since the animal is so intelligent and advanced socially, so I just don't know if the work required would outweigh the benefit for all but the most advanced tasks.

Swede

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

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They'll steal your stash and [censored] your woman and laugh about it.

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The point is, how do you know the [monkey] isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little [monkey], but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They'll steal your stash and [censored] your woman and laugh about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is, how do you know the [monkey] isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little [monkey], but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell ya what, if you want me to domesticate a box and mark it "chimp" I will, I got spare time...

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

There was a local (socal) case earlier in the year where a guy was attacked by two chimps. He was visiting a chimp he raised that was now in a refuge. It was his chimps birthday IIRC. Two other chimps got jealous.

The attacking chimps bit off most if no all his fingers and some toes I believe. The guy suffered multiple savage bites to the groin and they gouged his eyes out.

I guess chimps like biting off fingers in an attempt to permanently mame their foe. The guys own chimp had bitten a ladies thumb off years earlier which is why he went to the refuge.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

I have never really understood why it is such a big deal when a species go exticnt. Unless they are a really cool or useful species, or are imoportant to an ecosystem then who cares. Animals going extinct is natural selection (sometimes human selection too). I have no problem with animal rights activists, but it is stupid when someone cares about one animal more than the other only because its species number is low. Its species is dying because they suck.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

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Its species is dying because they suck.

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This might be the single most stupid statement I have EVER seen on OOT. Congratulations, Sir.

Swede

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

you know I've been looking for a home. if anyone's willing to share a double, preferably in north kenya, pm me.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

Censored,

Chimps are not very nice, period. Look at anyone who works with them for any period of time, odds are very high they are missing some fingers. Chips also like to do things like throw feces at people at spit... all the time. They aren't like dogs in that they are often 2-3 times as strong as an adult human, so it would be difficult to stop a maurading chimp. In terms of training them, they are easily trained to do simple tasks like pushing buttons, when the reward is high and immediate. But censored's dream of armies of chimps performing useful services is not very likely.

It is only wild chimps who are "in danger" of going extinct. Captive chimps actually have somewhat of an overpopulation problem in that they breed rapidly in captivity and there is no where to put them all. Chimps are highly social animals, so it would be difficult to raise a "normal" chimp in isolation. A pretty interesting book called Chimpanzee Politics could be an interesting read from you. I took some classes from the author who's a big wig in the primate research world and it was pretty interesting to me and I bore easily.

"Aragatangs" are milder, but not by much. Also, they are asian, so they have no souls and no one would be interested in them.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

does this happen when a chimp is raised alone?

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

No one has addressed the most important issue here...[censored]'s triumphant return to 2+2. Ban some people. Good to have you back.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

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No one has addressed the most important issue here...[censored]'s triumphant return to 2+2. Ban some people. Good to have you back.

[/ QUOTE ]

ban em all, let [censored] sort em out.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

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does this happen when a chimp is raised alone?

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It just happens with chimps period. Part of their life cycle, so say their trainers. Which is one reason why the chimps you do see in movies and t.v. are usually very young. Jane Goodall, and others, have recorded a lot of their violence, too, between tribes and within them.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

I believe in one of our human vs. animal type threads it was found that an average adult chimp is on around 5-7x stronger than average adult human. They can be quite tempermental, mix this with extra strong jaw muscles, and the ability to literally rip a person's head off, and they can make a poor choice for domestication.

I remember seeing a video (David Attenborough I believe) in my HS biology class of how chimps hunt. They basically used team work to surround and herd a monkey. Then they all grabbed onto it, and 4 of 5 of them all pulled and came out with a different appendage each. It was gruesome. Not a nice animal to have around.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

I've seen that one. I've seen several of them hunting and cannibalizing each other, too, including one where a band of them just went out looking for another chimp to kill at random and beat him to death with their fists. "Bonding."

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

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you know I've been looking for a home. if anyone's willing to share a double, preferably in north kenya, pm me.

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i cant believe no one commented on this yet. i guess i dont have a comment other than "wow." i gotta admit i laughed pretty hard though because at first i just read the post and was confused and then i looked at the name/avatar.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

u are still alive!

yay!

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

How do you think we ended up with the AIDS pandemic?

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

Male orangutans are very anti social- they are solitary most of the year and are only seen in roups during mating. They can be very territorial.
Domestication only occurs when animals (or palnts) meet many very specific requirements. Aggressive behavior (especially in territoriality) is nearly always a deal breaker and is seen in many of the apes.
If your interested in more info on dometication there is a good chapter in "the third chimpanzee" - which is an excellent book in many respects (written by the the "guns germs and steel" guy.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

Primates have already been domesticated, at least to some extent. Remember the episode of the Simpsons where Homer gets a helper monkey? Some old/disabled people do actually have helper monkees. I think the main reason why people dont have them as pets is because it takes a long time to train and domesticate them. As others have said, primates are naturally violaent and it takes a lot of effort to train that out of them.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

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I think the issue is that chimps are so intelligent and share so much of our DNA that there are ethical questions with treating them like pack animals or dogs. It's pretty amazing the range of personalities and capability to learn these little critters have shown.

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We do experiments on chimps despite any ethical issues, but keeping them as pets goes too far?

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

I agree that this is off the mark.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

When I saw this thread, I thought of that attack as well.

Mauled genitals.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

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So why haven't humans ever set about domesticating the larger monkies? Putting aside the animal rights concerns doesn't this seem like a worth while endeavor?

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Because they are so smart and so human-like it would practically be slavery.

edit: yeah, what Uncle Salty said.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

WTF have you been for the last month?

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

[ QUOTE ]
They only work with very young chimps, basically just kids, in movies and t.v.'s because they get very cranky, even vicious, past just a few years of age. Biting stars and scratching them up actually does happen. They are also very strong even at a year or so old, so by the time they get a few years on them, they can basically tear us to pieces if they get the notion. And since their hostility and territoriality rises markedly as they come into sexual maturity and age, the notion they just very well might get. It's not worth the risk.

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so in other words, they have the personality of your average OOT'er -

leave the monkey in the jungle.

RB

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

I think I have to ask...

Who would win if 3 chimps fought a big [censored] gorilla?

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

Gorillas literally pick up lions and break them, snapping their spines. If it were a big greyback, I think he'd scare the crap out of the chimps. I don't give the 3 chimps much of a chance.

Now, as to how many five-year olds a chimp could take ...

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sure, chimps are among the smartest of animals, no arguing that. However, intelligence isn't necessarily the end-all quality desired when training and domesticating an animal.

A primate requires a TON of effort since the animal is so intelligent and advanced socially, so I just don't know if the work required would outweigh the benefit for all but the most advanced tasks.

Swede

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Dolphins are supposedly even smarter than chimps. Why is there no ethical considerations about training them and keeping them in captivity (besides the typical ALF stuff)?

Intelligence has nothing to do with this argument.


Oh yeah, [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], welcome back [censored]

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

As a contributory note on that theme, "bush meat," which is usually chimps, gorillas and small monkeys, has been very commonly eaten in Africa for ages and still is, in great quantities, today. Not a lotta respect going there either.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

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As a contributory note on that theme, "bush meat," which is usually chimps, gorillas and small monkeys, has been very commonly eaten in Africa for ages and still is, in great quantities, today. Not a lotta respect going there either.

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I'm pretty sure that this is a leading theory on the transmission of SIV to humans as well.

Edit: After a quick check, I'm only half correct. SIV is related to HIV-2 which is only found in West Africa. This is still thought to have been caused by "bush meat." HIV-1, which cannot be transmitted to chimps and is the pandemic strain, is not directly related to SIV.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

It's commonly believed in Africa that "bush meat" contributed to the spreading of Ebola.

A friend of mine worked on a pilot project training chimps to assist the disabled. It got scrapped mid way because of the animal's agression. Only very young ones were suitable. Once they became adults they were way too agressive.

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

i got your bush meat right here

Re: domesticating chimps. why not
 

You should focus on reindeer instead.