25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

so the game at the bike broke, and the board for the 10-20 was way to long, so i decided to give the 25-50 game a shot.
besides two players whom i recognized as extremely good players the table looked pretty soft.

i sat down w/ 5K was down to 2K and had finally worked my stack back up to 7K when this hand went down.

i have a very tight table image (mostly because for the past hour i was getting no playable hands).

i'm in the BB w/66 ~7K.
MP is a very solid but ABC player who is very capable of laying down big hands. he has me way covered.
the button is martin dekniff (not sure if i'm spelling it right) and he just sat down so i have no read on him and vice versa. he also has me way covered.

ok so four limpers to me i check.
flop comes 6h 9c 5h.
i check MP bets $300, folded to button who calls, i make it $1100 to go.

(the past two nice pots i won came after i limped utg w/KK then QQ and reraised. w/KK i got two callers and made a big flop bet and won, with the QQ i limpreraised a very aggro players raise and several callers and they all folded. only mention this as the table has seen me go for the checkraise several times already)

MP and button call.
turn comes 2s making the board 2s 5h 6h 9c.

i check (comments?) MP bets 2K button calls.
at this point whats your line?

for those of you who advocate leading out on the turn whats your plan if raised?
for those of you who advocate calling the turn whats you plan both if the board doesn't pair on the river, and if it does.

i'll post my actual line and the results after some discussion.
thanks.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

since youve been check raising a lot, when you c/r the flop and then check the turn it looks like you were just trying to steal it on the flop, no?

also, why not lead out on the flop?

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, why not lead out on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

in this instance if i lead the flop there is a good chance i'm going to get flatcalled by a drawing hand, and only raised (which would be my goal if leading out) by a better hand.

i figured by CR i could get some dead money in the pot and also raise enough to chase out the many draws that were out there.

but by all means deconstruct that line. just sharing my thought process at the time.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

I like betting the flop, hope to get raised by an overpair, two pair, or a draw and then come back over the top to shut them out or get them to make a bad call.

It seem seems that you made the hand very tricky on yourself as you have zero idea what the MP has. He could have bet $2000 because he smelled weakness, because he wanted to protect an overpair, because he was on a draw, etc.

Now, you are put to an extremely tough turn decision. If you call, you could be giving him a free shot and you are likely in an ugly position on the river if the poard doesnt pair and he puts you to the test.

If you come back over the top you could lose your entire stack.

I saw your reasoning on why you checkraised the flop. However, you dont know that you are going to get called instead of raised and if you are called that isnt a bad thing anyway.

just my two cents

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

I don't play this high so keep in mind I may have no idea what I'm talking about....

There are a couple things I don't like here. First is the size of your checkraise. Button's call of the 300 looks like he might be drawing so, if MP calls your checkraise, his odds to call the 800 more for a draw aren't horrible assuming he can get some more money out of either your or MP when he hits. If you had checkraised larger than the pot size (say, 1700?), I think you can get headup against just one of the other two who would be holding either a big draw or a made hand (overpair, two pair, bigger set-ugh).

Then after you checkraised the flop, why did you check the turn? I really feel like somebody is drawing here and, unless they had 43, they didn't get there yet. I don't want to give a free card to a heart or another straightening card that could put me to a very tough decision on the river.

Personally, I think I'd lead the turn (~2/3 pot) and fold to a raise. If flat called, I'd check/call a reasonable bet on a non-scary river and throw out a blocking bet on the river to a scary card and fold to a reraise. If a heart came that paired the board on the river, I'd make the same blocking bet and hope somebody came over the top so I could go allin and lose to quads.

I'm primarily a small stakes player so feel free to point out any serious flaws in my thinking here.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

one thing to remember, this was an unraised pot.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

I am curious how you think that affects this?

I think that it is an unraised pot is one of the reasons to lead out as it doesnt say anything about your hand. You could be stealing, betting top pair, a weak pair, a draw, 2 pair etc.

You are likely to face a nice raise to your flop bet.

Also, what about a line where you lead overbet the pot on the flop and trick them into thinking something like, "he has a 9 or a piece of the flop and he doesnt want anyone sticking around with their draws and because he is unsure of his hand. I think I will fire a big bet to let him know his hand is no good".

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

this is a tough hand. one thing I'd like to know is how much MP and button have, in other words can button be calling with a draw on the turn still? (usually he would not have enough left to do this)

at any rate, MP calling 2k on the turn has alarm bells going off in my head. I like the turn check as it looks like you were stabbing at the flop, however with 4k left in a 7.5k pot I am either checkraising allin or folding the turn. I may not get paid if the board pairs, and there are plenty of scare cards. if this were heads up, you are less worried about scare cards but in a 3 way pot usually there is at least one monster draw out there.

I was thinking yesterday that I really hate 3 way pots, you always have tough decisions to make.

--turnipmonster

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

mp most likely has an overpair TT-QQ looking to showdown; if not he's on a KFD or NFD.

button 55 set being cute or baby flushdraw combo (4h3h? possible gutshot as well)

allin

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

[ QUOTE ]

It seem seems that you made the hand very tricky on yourself as you have zero idea what the MP has. He could have bet $2000 because he smelled weakness, because he wanted to protect an overpair, because he was on a draw, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this hand has gotten very tricky. I don't agree with the range of reasons that you give for MP betting 2K here.

The pot is already 3.5K+ plus, so why does he bet only 2K? Surely he knows that button could be on a big draw and they are both VERY deep stacked (I wish the OP had given us the specific amounts - 15K?).

1. he smelled weakness?
Not possible IMO. He started this hand by overbetting the pot. He got called. Then there was a checkraise. He called AND the button called. He is not sensing weakness from anyone here.

2. because he wanted to protect an overpair
See #1. He is done with the hand if he was dumb enough to call the checkraise with just an overpair and the button bet caller still to act behind him. When the button also calls the checkraise, he has to know an overpair is no good. When he bets here he will have two people to act behind him, and one has already shown a proclivity to checkraise.

3. because he was on a draw
It seems he could be putting this out there as a little bit of a "blocking bet" type move where he wants to correctly price himself in for his big draw. But wouldn't he be worried that button is still to act and Hero has already checkraised?

4. I think he is pricing you in to push
I think he wants a push here from you. Button calls, you push, he can now push and ruin button's big draw. This means he has 78 of course.

You don't give the size of the villains' stacks, but I assume they are in the 15K+ range. This means they are more concerned with each other's stacks as far as being on a big draw is concerned (or set against straight). When he (under)bets 2K he has to know that you are pretty much being given the option to push or fold. I would hate to just call here. There are a lot of scare cards which could fall. You would only have ~4K left and the pot would be huge (~9.5K). I can't see calling and then folding if a heart, 7 or 8 falls.

5. he is putting out a feeler bet with bottom set?
I guess it is possible that he is confused as to just what the hell these people have and he wants a better idea. 2K is a lot cheaper than betting close to the pot.

There are 3 people in this hand and all are showing strength. Everyone in the hand must assume that they are up against a straight, set or big draw (or possible from villains' perspectives that hero has 2 pair and checked the turn because the checkraise getting called by 2 people means he is done with the hand).

I think you have to push or fold. I don't like calling. I would fold. I just think that the most likely explanation of MP underbetting the pot is to goad you into pushing.

I would lean towards folding. Pushing is OK too because of the pot size. It is not true that pushing is bad because of "deep stacks". Your stack is no longer deep in relation to the pot. You would be coming over the top for 4K more into a 9.5K pot.

Again, the question is why MP would bet 2K into a 3.5K pot with a draw heavy board and two opponents who have shown strength. If he has a set I think he would bet more. And then when button calls, it is probable that your set is no good here. Even if it is good at the moment, button or MP could actually be on a big draw and have 9-12 outs.

So I lean towards folding, but pushing seems OK because of the massive pot. Calling I like least.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

Sorry, I miscalculated the pot size and thought he was firing an overbet.

You are correct.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

ok MP and button had stacks of ~11K
and after the flop action i had ~6400 left (i just realized that my original post was wrong in regards to my stack size after working the hand backwards).
after MP bets 2k and button calls the pot is ~9k so i'm getting over 4-1 on my money.

i actually put MP on 34 and button on a flush draw.
if either player had 78 the money was going in on the flop.
i figured i had odds to try and fill up.

i smooth called the 2K and the river was a black 5 giving me a boat and the effective nuts. because i think if anyone had 55 or 99 more money would have gone in on the flop, but who knows.

so now that i made my boat, whats my best chance to get paid?
the pot is already over 10K and i have ~4400 left.
i'm first to act and both of my opponents are good.
the only player to show strength in this hand besides myself is the MP but like i said in my OP he is very capable of laying down big hands and he has to suspect one of us has a set.
so who likes going for a checkraise, and who likes leading out...and if you like leading would you push the $4400 or bet ~2.5K?

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

I do not understand at all how you could be certain that you are ahead on the turn and not checkraise.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do not understand at all how you could be certain that you are ahead on the turn and not checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't think he's ahead on the turn, he thinks one of his opponents has the low straight, but the bet is small enough, and he's got enough money behind, to smooth call and try to outdraw him.

As for how to play it: flop looks fine to me.

Turn, what a horrible situation with two very solid opponents; I tend to lead out, but I think your line is fine as well.

River: An open-push is bad if you think Martin will make a play for the pot with a missed draw (this seems quite possible to me), or if you think an opponent with a straight (or overpair?) will check it down, but will call your all-in bet (with the straight, they'll pretty much have to, getting 3:1 on their money.) You have too little behind to value bet anything other than all-in.

All depends on how likely they are to bluff, and to release second-best hands to your all-in; if they're very likely to do both, then check; if unlikely, then bet.

You should consider your game selection ;-)

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

[ QUOTE ]

ok MP and button had stacks of ~11K
and after the flop action i had ~6400 left (i just realized that my original post was wrong in regards to my stack size after working the hand backwards).


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, this doesn't change much because it means you started with about 7.5K instead of 7K.

[ QUOTE ]

after MP bets 2k and button calls the pot is ~9k so i'm getting over 4-1 on my money.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now I'm lost. Was just the initially cited stack size incorrect, or were the bet/raise amounts incorrect as well?

250 went in preflop. Then 3300 more went in on the flop. Then 2K was bet and called. 0.25K + 3.3K + 2K + 2K = ~7.5K. I'm not saying you were not getting odds (assuming you had 10 clean outs), just that I think there is only 7.5K in the pot, not 9K.

[ QUOTE ]

i actually put MP on 34 and button on a flush draw.
if either player had 78 the money was going in on the flop.
i figured i had odds to try and fill up.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why would he play 34 like that? He overbet the pot on the flop and was called and then checkraised. So what cards does he like if he has 34? 2 of hearts? No. 7 of hearts? No. Any other 7? Well he can kind of like that. Or maybe he is already completely drawing dead. If he's lucky he is up against a set, will hit one of his 3 non-heart 2s on the turn, and the board will not pair on the river. The flop was double suited and a nut straight was already possible. Sounds like a strange way to play the ignorant end of a straight draw in a deep stacked no limit game.

[ QUOTE ]

i smooth called the 2K and the river was a black 5 giving me a boat and the effective nuts. because i think if anyone had 55 or 99 more money would have gone in on the flop, but who knows.

so now that i made my boat, whats my best chance to get paid?


[/ QUOTE ]

You will probably not get paid, but push is your best chance. If he's fishy enough to call the flop checkraise with 34 there, then maybe he'll call. Probably you won't get paid, but pushing is better than checking IMO.

Edited to add: Assuming he did play the 34 like a fish, would he then underbet the pot when one of his 3 good cards hits?

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

Maybe 3h 4h is a possibility. I wouldn't be able to put him on 3 4 here though.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

A couple of weeks ago I got my clock cleaned in a similar hand. The lesson I learned was that if I CR the flop then check the turn and a solid ABC player bets into me, he probably has the nuts. BB calling makes the decision to fold here even easier. You gave it a good try on the flop but my guess is that at least one of them probably has you beat already.

Re: 25-50 results
 

ok.
so the reason i put the MP on 34 rather then 78 or a set is because after the button calls and i checkraise if he has the nuts he is going to make a big play right there to shut out the possible draws (since it is multiway rather then heads up) and i put the button on the flush draw as he seemed to have kept getting priced into drawing.

as it turned out i pushed the river, trying to represent a busted flush draw.
after all i check raised the flop, then check called the turn, so i figured that might look like a busted flush draw.

the MP player thought for about three minutes, counted out the chips to call, almost did, and then finally folded in disgust, flashing 34 of hearts to several players.

martin (button) showed K9 of hearts and folded as well.

in retrospect i think my only chance to get paid would have been to go for a checkraise, but i think there is a high liklihood the MP would have checked the river.

and as to the poster who commented on how i could checkraise the flop then check the turn if i thought i was ahead....i didn't think i was ahead.

however i felt like i got close to the right price to call on the turn and try and fill up.
i was also thinking that i would have some implied odds if i did fill up, however it turns out i didn't.

Re: 25-50 results
 

with your reads and the way the hand went down, I think you really need to go for the CR on the river.

MP is most likely going to bet his prob. straight, and if not, there is a good chance martin will make a play at the pot with a busted flush draw.

another is throw a $1.5k-2.5k bet on the river and let him call with the straight. even he isnt laying that down for that price.

tough hand though, very interesting.

btw how are the 5-10 and 10-20ish games there usually.

ill bet out there sometime in the next few months.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

MP played it poorly. If he overbets the pot on the turn the button folds and now you have to make a decision. Would you call or lay it down if you really thought he had a small straight. But with the way the hand played if you bet 2000 or 2500 I think it would had been hard for him not to call.

Re: 25-50 results
 

[ QUOTE ]
with your reads and the way the hand went down, I think you really need to go for the CR on the river.

MP is most likely going to bet his prob. straight, and if not, there is a good chance martin will make a play at the pot with a busted flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. Given his description, I could see him checking and the higher the chance that he'll bet it, the higher the chance that he'll call as well. I don't think there's a good chance Martin will make a play into two players on this board with that action. Especially when one is a notorious checkraiser. And rbk's stack is not very deep at this point.

[ QUOTE ]
another is throw a $1.5k-2.5k bet on the river and let him call with the straight. even he isnt laying that down for that price.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I just push, but given the player's description I would have probably bet 2k. That's like announcing a boat and almost challenging them to fold, but it seems to work anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
btw how are the 5-10 and 10-20ish games there usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think all the games smaller than 10-20 are capped crap games. The 10-20 NL is the best game in the world.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

[ QUOTE ]
MP played it poorly. If he overbets the pot on the turn the button folds and now you have to make a decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure someone will do the exact math, but given the two turn calls and the river fold, MP might have played it fine.

Re: 25-50 results
 

diablo-

do you think that the chances MP calls the push are better than the chance that either MP bets or martin pulls a move if king checks the river?

Re: 25-50 results
 

[ QUOTE ]
diablo-

do you think that the chances MP calls the push are better than the chance that either MP bets or martin pulls a move if king checks the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think the chance that Martin puts any money in is slim, no matter what anyone else does. If it gets checked to him, I think he'll check and pray his turned top pair is miraculously good.

So, it comes down to MP. I don't think there's a high chance he calls a push. I basically think he's rarely going to bet more than he's going to call, but he'll check a lot too. So you might as well bet what you think he might call. That's why I like rbk's push better than a check here and prefer an obvious milky bet even more.

Re: 25-50 results
 

Hi Diablo and rbk,

[ QUOTE ]
Normally I just push, but given the player's description I would have probably bet 2k.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly how much I'd bet; very hard to turn down 6 to 1 with a straight no matter how it looks. I assume that by, "given the player's description," you meant "very good player". But I think I'd bet about the same thing against a bad or average player, too, because I think there's such a good chance of getting 2000 called, and because the bad player is more likely to be in there with a weaker hand than a straight.

It seems obvious to me that a very good player like Martin, as well as a solid player like MP, will rarely if ever have just called on the flop with the nuts. I basically rule out 87 after the flop action for MP, and totally rule it out for the button.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

Bet $1000 on the river. MP will know you have him smoked but will pay to see your cards anyways.

I don't particularly care for the turn call given your reads and the caliber of your opposition. But given that you called and got lucky, make sure to slip that extra grand in your pocket on the river.

Re: 25-50 results
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
diablo-

do you think that the chances MP calls the push are better than the chance that either MP bets or martin pulls a move if king checks the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think the chance that Martin puts any money in is slim, no matter what anyone else does. If it gets checked to him, I think he'll check and pray his turned top pair is miraculously good.

So, it comes down to MP. I don't think there's a high chance he calls a push. I basically think he's rarely going to bet more than he's going to call, but he'll check a lot too. So you might as well bet what you think he might call. That's why I like rbk's push better than a check here and prefer an obvious milky bet even more.

[/ QUOTE ]


fair enough, although i think the chances of martin making a play go down considerably once we find out that he has decent showdown potential.

the river here is one of the few places i might bet half my stack, bc the pot is so huge MP will call. yeah, i like that milk bet alot.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

Any solid players knows never to slow play a straight, so you are right to deduce that neither of your opponents have a nut straight on the flop based on how the action went. 3 way, especially with such deep stacks involved warrants playing a straight fast and furious which of course did not happen.

Having said this, your opponents mistake was also failing to realize you didn't have a straight as well based on the turn check. If you have 7-8, your turn check warrants giving a free card to a potential filler to the boat/flush which doesn't make sense at all even if you know one of the players has 34 in their hand.

I beleive over betting the pot on the turn here is the correct play especially with such deep stacks involved, provided you

a. may have the best hand.
b. force 34 to fold figuring he is drawing dead.
c. forcing the flush draws to really pay the price
d. you obviously have a good redraw even if you are called and are beat.

Lawrence

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

Interesting hand, btw, thanks for posting.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

The way the action went down, and the amount of money going in, your hand is made rather transparent by the river. Nothing you can do about this now and checking seems pretty much out of the question. When this much money is in with deep stacks and the amount behind is small, the best hand takes down the pot, meaning dekniff is smart enough to know a bluff is pretty useless. Pushing is clearly not a bad play as the majority of players call with a straight. If I give the guy respect however, I think I bet between 1.5 and 3k, basically just correlated with how good of a player I judge him to be. Also, does anyway else think about mucking k [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here? Obviously if dekniff put the other guy on a lower flush it's a call but it seems unlikely he knew that.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

On first glance I figured dekniff for T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], etc. With less action the extra 5 outs for 2pair or open trips seem live but he must realize those are useless by the turn. He is forced to play the hand fairly obviously and therefore can't think he has much in the way of implied odds. Also, two of his outs pair the board. So he is sitting there with little implied and what seems like 7 outs to the second nut. Maybe I'm just made weak and scared by these stakes, but I think about folding this in his position.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

What a fish I am. After the flop action no way I put anyone on 34, maybe 34 hearts; nor do I think anyone has a hand better than mine. If I had checked the turn, I checkraise all in. I probably wouldn't have checked the turn though.

Re: 25-50 results
 

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
btw how are the 5-10 and 10-20ish games there usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think all the games smaller than 10-20 are capped crap games. The 10-20 NL is the best game in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

referencing the NL games exclusively? surely the limit Hold 'Em games can be included in that description as well

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

[ QUOTE ]

After the flop action no way I put anyone on 34, maybe 34 hearts


[/ QUOTE ]

3h 4h is the only 34 combination the MP player could have held. It is completely impossible to put a solid player on 3 4 in general.

Re: 25-50 results
 

[ QUOTE ]
btw how are the 5-10 and 10-20ish games there usually.

ill bet out there sometime in the next few months.

[/ QUOTE ]

as diablo said the 10-20 NL at the commerce is one of the best games i've ever sat in.

also PM me before you come out and i'll meet up with you at commerce and give you a heads up as to the players to watch out for.

Re: 25-50 commerce.....interesting decisions on all streets.
 

[ QUOTE ]
MP played it poorly. If he overbets the pot on the turn the button folds and now you have to make a decision. Would you call or lay it down if you really thought he had a small straight. But with the way the hand played if you bet 2000 or 2500 I think it would had been hard for him not to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

had MP made a strong move on the turn and gotten the button out i would have had a very tough decison.
i honestly am not sure what i would have done, although vs. that particular player i think i would have leaned towards folding.