My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Ok this is my Best ever Lay Down, Id like to here your views on this hand and perhaps any great lay downs you've made yourself.

Ok I'm on Pacific Poker $5-$10 as usual, In the Big Blind on a very loose table I look down and see KK with 5 limpers, now I no if I raise not one of these players will fold, all I'll be doing is giving them better pot odds later on, and its harder enough getting them outta the pot if its small, if the pots big I'm never gonna beat all 5 of them with KK.

So I check flop brings 9d5dJh not a great flop for me as now if I bet any 2diamonds will call me, any 67,78,QT,KT,J rag, 9, and probably the 5 will call me, so I check hoping for a check raise to knock a few out, but now everyone checks and the turn brings a horrible 7d

The board now looks like this 9d 5d Jh 7d, one of these 5 players now has me beat, I'm gonna check this but wait the Small Blind bets out, this guy is a real Loose, Passive Player, I mean he was they guy who cracked my JJ to runner runner straight earlier, he chases everything but never bets out without a hand, he's either got the Flush, or at least two pair and even if he hasnt I'm sure someone else has got a piece of this board, it was only my Big Blind $5 invested, I FOLD.

One player calls and the River is Qs board is now 9d 5d Jh 7d Qs, horrible board for me but as so many players folded I'm not sure I've done the correct thing, but my read on the Small Blind is pretty good, I mean I've played with this guy for around a month now.

The Small Blind Bets out again and the only other player in the pot calls.

Showdown time Small Blind Shows wait for it Pocket Aces...this is probably the best lay down I've ever made due to the non aggression shown throughout the hand, geez I got lucky there holding KK and I didnt lose a penny, I mean your forced to put in the $5 blind so that doesnt even count... After that I played a pretty good game ending up around $200..

Also check out my blog if you get the chance http://www.holdemlife.co.uk/68423/69112.html

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

I think you raise preflop

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

I couln't get too far into your post because it's one long sentence, but checking your option pre-flop sucks.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I couln't get too far into your post because it's one long sentence, but checking your option pre-flop sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

It gets worse.

Rob

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

ugggggh...

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

sweet. can i subscribe to your newsletter?

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Does your blog contain paragraphs or merely one giant run on sentence? The enter key is on the right I recommend using it more often. Oh, raise your kings preflop and please dont give poker advice on the internet.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Wow thanks for your replies guys, Ok I'm not the best at forum posts. But really must you be so harsh?? whats the point of replying to my post if you just gonna bitch n moan?? I heard 2+2 was great for sharing info on poker, not a very welcoming site for me [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
geez I got lucky there holding KK and I didnt lose a penny, I mean your forced to put in the $5 blind so that doesnt even count...


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah - dont waste your money with those kings.


This is why you are getting a hard time.....no one is trying to be mean to new posters but there are certain things that identify you as having much to learn. I certainly would check into how to play kings and big pairs first.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

I wasn't trying to crack wise.

Seriously, it's really hard to read the way it is, so I just gave up. Edit it up a little bit and you'll probably get more constructive responses. (Also, if you butchered the hand you'll hear about it, which is a good thing.)

Welcome to the forums.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Here is an interesting laydown I made.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (17 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP folds, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, UTG calls, Button calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls, Button folds.

River: (13.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has Ks Kc (one pair, kings).
SB has As Ac (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: SB wins 15.50 BB. </font>

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Ok I've edited the post best I can. Like I said before I'm not gonna be the world's greatest forum poster.

Anyway, Yes I know to Raise KK and cap KK whenever wherever.. But this was truely the loosest game ever another thing you PRO's forgot is the whole MIXING your game up?? I mean are you seriously telling me NONE of you have ever LIMPED with KK before???

My advice may not be great, my post's may not be great, my poker may not be great, but you know what, I'm never gonna put people down like you guys did [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
? I mean are you seriously telling me NONE of you have ever LIMPED with KK before???

[/ QUOTE ]


I am not proud of it, got therapy, did the 12 steps, and have raised KK everytime for 125 days since those dark times......

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

http://www.drunkandretired.com/images/may19/burt-j.jpg

"It's funny, because its bigger than a normal hat" - Turd Furguson

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
My advice may not be great, my post's may not be great, my poker may not be great, but you know what, I'm never gonna put people down like you guys did [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone here is putting you down. Read posts on this board and you'll find that these are pretty standard responses to bad posts. It's not anything personal. It's simply sarcastic requests to post in a way that instigates good commentary.

Don't be afraid to post again. Just do so using good form. Check out this sticky post in the micro limits forum for some tips.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I've edited the post best I can. Like I said before I'm not gonna be the world's greatest forum poster.

Anyway, Yes I know to Raise KK and cap KK whenever wherever.. But this was truely the loosest game ever another thing you PRO's forgot is the whole MIXING your game up?? I mean are you seriously telling me NONE of you have ever LIMPED with KK before???

My advice may not be great, my post's may not be great, my poker may not be great, but you know what, I'm never gonna put people down like you guys did [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I am seriously telling you I have never limped in the big blind in an unraised pot with KK. The only time I would limp with them is in an aggressive game in early position, where I believe someone behind me will raise, so I can 3-bet.

You claim to never put anyone down but pepper your statement with all kinds of sarcasm about us PRO's. Please.

Oh, and by the way, why the hell would you want anyone to FOLD preflop when you hold KK? Do you not understand that you will win the pot more often than they will?

Here's an idea I stole from another post on this topic (I forget who said it and I'm too lazy to look it up): The next time you get KK or AA, just raise and show everyone your cards so that they will all fold and you'll never get sucked out on.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
? I mean are you seriously telling me NONE of you have ever LIMPED with KK before???

[/ QUOTE ]


I am not proud of it, got therapy, did the 12 steps, and have raised KK everytime for 125 days since those dark times......

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok you win, Sign me up for therapy..

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Should raise pre-flop with your KK.. yes you are building a pot, but you also have odds to flop a set of kings.

Once you raise that spot you want to bet the flop. Giving infinite odds to draws is worse than giving them correct odds to call. Check-raising is a good plan too.. just didn't work here.

You didn't mention if one of your kings was a diamond, which would have given you a backdoor flush draw as well. I'm guessing you didn't have one since you folded on the turn.

A lot of people will bet a flush draw on a flop like this. Since they didn't I'm not sure why you are so scared that your hand is no good.. but anyways the fold seems pretty weak given lack of any kind of action to this point.

You said your read on the SB was that he could be playing any kind of hand here, and that you've been playing with him for a month now. Did you put him on AA?

Couldn't he ave A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? Are you telling me if he bets out on the flop you don't raise it immediately?

.......

My best fold happened at a 4-8 game live. I'm on the button with AA and it's a loose game. There are a couple limpers when MP (local) raises, I 3-bet and 4 of us see the flop which comes 55T.

It's checked to me and I bet, the EP's call and the local motions to the dealer a thumbs up.. saying "raise it up".

Now the only hand which he could have to beat me here is TT (he's not raising 55 pre-flop). I'm normally not going to worry about anyone having the nuts here. However, the way he made this check-raise hit me inside. This included many things: his body language, the way he almost wanted to avoid the verbage, and the fact I had played with him for several sessions and had a good idea where he was most of the time. I think for a couple seconds and fold. The other 2 in the pot fold as well. He smiles and turns over TT.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
? I mean are you seriously telling me NONE of you have ever LIMPED with KK before???

[/ QUOTE ]


I am not proud of it, got therapy, did the 12 steps, and have raised KK everytime for 125 days since those dark times......

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok you win, Sign me up for therapy..

[/ QUOTE ]

You signed yourself up for therapy on 12/11/04. You made the first step....now take the next - pay attention and learn. There are alot of helpful people here, many sacastic, a few lunatics, and a few a-holes.

Welcome to the Forums.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Disclaimer: None of the following is intended as an attack. Take it as the best serious, honest advice I have to give you.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok this is my Best ever Lay Down, Id like to here your views on this hand and perhaps any great lay downs you've made yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I'm surprised you didn't get flamed by at least 10 seperate posters on this line alone.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'm on Pacific Poker $5-$10 as usual, In the Big Blind on a very loose table I look down and see KK with 5 limpers, now I no if I raise not one of these players will fold,

[/ QUOTE ]

You've certainly got the best hand here - not raising with the best hand is BAD. Your raise isn't intended to get people to fold - it's intended to build a pot with the best hand pre-flop and a hand that is a favorite to win (even against 5 loose opponents) at showdown. Also - if they're not going to fold now, they're probably not going to fold later either - why not juice up the pot with the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
all I'll be doing is giving them better pot odds later on, and its harder enough getting them outta the pot if its small, if the pots big I'm never gonna beat all 5 of them with KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll repeat: If they're not going to fold now, they're probably not going to fold later either. There are plenty of posts on that address exactly why this thinking is wrong. If you are thinking like this, with any regularity, you really need to go back through the last 5-6 pages of posts on here and start reading.

[ QUOTE ]
So I check flop brings 9d5dJh not a great flop for me as now if I bet any 2diamonds will call me, any 67,78,QT,KT,J rag, 9, and probably the 5 will call me, so I check hoping for a check raise to knock a few out, but now everyone checks...

[/ QUOTE ]

Letting this get checked through is pretty bad. Nothing like letting all those hands you were worried about see another card for free. Lead the flop and hope that someone raises giving you a chance to three bet and really make them pay to draw. If you would've raised PF a bet here would've likely folded many hands that you want to fold (even in a loose game).

[ QUOTE ]
...and the turn brings a horrible 7d The board now looks like this 9d 5d Jh 7d, one of these 5 players now has me beat, I'm gonna check this but wait the Small Blind bets out, this guy is a real Loose, Passive Player, I mean he was they guy who cracked my JJ to runner runner straight earlier,

[/ QUOTE ]

This is called "monsters under the bed" syndrome. Just because a player drew out on your big PP earlier doesn't mean that you should never bet and raise with them anymore!?

[ QUOTE ]
he chases everything but never bets out without a hand, he's either got the Flush, or at least two pair and even if he hasnt I'm sure someone else has got a piece of this board, it was only my Big Blind $5 invested, I FOLD.

[/ QUOTE ]

One part of the hand that you may had actually played correctly. I think a lot of 2+2ers would be willing to let this hand go when this bet comes from a player like you describe (then again some may also raise!? [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]). The main thing is that you shouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]
One player calls and the River is Qs board is now 9d 5d Jh 7d Qs, horrible board for me but as so many players folded I'm not sure I've done the correct thing, but my read on the Small Blind is pretty good, I mean I've played with this guy for around a month now.

The Small Blind Bets out again and the only other player in the pot calls.

Showdown time Small Blind Shows wait for it Pocket Aces...this is probably the best lay down I've ever made

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you probably haven't made enough laydowns.

[ QUOTE ]
due to the non aggression shown throughout the hand, geez I got lucky there holding KK and I didnt lose a penny,

[/ QUOTE ]

If it was that lucky then wouldn't it be the "luckiest laydown ever" and not the "best laydown ever"?? Also you lost your $5 blind - just because you had to post it doesn't mean it wasn't your money.

[ QUOTE ]
I mean your forced to put in the $5 blind so that doesnt even count...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even know how to respond to this!? So basically you're saying that your money doesn't count. I would not believe you if you tell me you're a winning player.

[ QUOTE ]
After that I played a pretty good game ending up around $200..

[/ QUOTE ]

Lucky you - and if the rest of your game is based on the premises you've presented in this post - then I do mean LUCKY.

I has been proven over time by many people who know much better than me that passive play like this will not win money in the long run. If you play in this manner with any regularity I suggest you search these forums for resources (there are plenty of posts already) on how to improve your game because it does need improvement (not to mention that these forums may well be the #1 resource).

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
The next time you get KK or AA, just raise and show everyone your cards so that they will all fold and you'll never get sucked out on.

[/ QUOTE ]

AWESOME!!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
You signed yourself up for therapy on 12/11/04. You made the first step....now take the next - pay attention and learn. There are alot of helpful people here, many sacastic, a few lunatics, and a few a-holes.
Welcome to the Forums.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ditto!!! Even more AWESOME!!!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Did anyone else read this and, atleast for a second, feel like they're wasting their time NOT playing on Pacific Poker?

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did anyone else read this and, atleast for a second, feel like they're wasting their time NOT playing on Pacific Poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

SUPER DUPER AWESOME!!!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] I can't believe that it keeps getting better and better!!!!1

Question for the bar-b-que chef...
 

Did anyone else think this was a joke?

Before I say anything, I mean no personal attack..

But, this kind of thing happens a lot at RGP. I'm new to twoplustwo, and hadn't seen it yet, but figured this would happen from time to time.

Again, I mean no personal attack at all, but I didn't think it was possible for someone to not know to raise KK if they were playing 5-10 (espeicially true for people who know what twoplustwo is).

PS: Title is a reference to a simpsons episode.

PPS: I'm going jogging now and won't be able to read/respond to replies for like an hour.

Re: Question for the bar-b-que chef...
 

Wow. Good call.. perhaps? If it is a joke he followed thru with a poker web site pretty hard =)

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also check out my blog if you get the chance http://www.holdemlife.co.uk/68423/69112.html


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

donk.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you've already read the blog then you're just lazy.

If you haven't read the blog yet, read it now and then go back and edit that post to put "DONK" in capitals and bolded type!!

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wow thanks for your replies guys, Ok I'm not the best at forum posts. But really must you be so harsh?? whats the point of replying to my post if you just gonna bitch n moan?? I heard 2+2 was great for sharing info on poker, not a very welcoming site for me [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

here's some information: you should raise KK preflop, always. your reasoning against it is plain god awful. you mean you don't want people to be putting in additional bets before the flop when you hold the second best hand in poker? if this is typical of your preflop thinking you've got a gaping hole in your game. this is easy stuff. if the sb limp reraises you, you should auto-cap.

you should lead this flop, always. again, this is standard. if the sb leads (even after your cap), you should raise. checking into a passive preflop field on a drawing board where they're likely interested in taking a free turn card is Bad.

and what's with your ultra-specific reads based on opponents calling and checking? not only are you seeing monsters under the bed, you're leaving snacks out overnight to entice them to hang out there just so you can get scared when they actually show up.

you played this poorly and lost far less money than you should have because you played this like a donk, saved as well by the SB playing this like an even BIGGER donk.

and lastly... any post that begins "my best lay down" is going to be met by scorn. primarily because making big lay-downs at this level is not what winning poker is all about. and also because they make this same point in SSH and everyone who's read it recently will quote it like the bible and ram it down your throat every second they get.

if you'd like to contribute more to the forum and work on your game... welkommen!

if you've come to wow us with your poker prowess... i apologize for the scorn in this post and others (which i haven't read, but i'm sure it's there), but you've got a lot to learn :-)

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

oh man... did you SEE the ridiculous sample size?

this guys played like... 1000 hands on-line, and is winning at roughly a 10bb/100hands...

it's going to be an ugly, ugly fall...

although how he got to those reasonable pfr and vp$ip playing like this i'll never know...

note: big laydowns = high% of winning money at showdown.
big laydowns ALSO = folding the best hand too frequently.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

If you've really made $3000 like that you're a pretty big walking mathematical aberration.

[ QUOTE ]

Hi there I'm John Bowman aka Delliks (my online user name) which is Skilled backwards..

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty appropriate name actually. Just sayin'

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

I just looked at the blog, and take back my 'was this a joke' comment (though I stand by the picture of Turd Furguson).

Now, TyingHard, no one on here is making a personal attack on you, it's 100% a poker attack. Before you go any further in your poker career, you NEED to read both: Theory of Poker and Small Stakes Holdem.

I've looked at two pages on your blog (both in the limit advice section) and saw some big problems.

1. You are not using the proper odds when drawing. Just because you are 7-1 to make a 3 outter by the river, doesn't mean you can call at bet getting 7-1 on the flop. This is because you will possibly have to call another bet on the turn. THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT, and one that is frequently misunderstood.

2. Saying you need a HUGE pot to continue with QJd on a board of Ad 4d 4s because of a fear of a full house or a king high flush draw is terrible. Like, Slotboom-esque terrible. The pot needs to be slightly bigger than normal. But certainly not huge.

Read the board. There are a lot of great posters here who will help your game.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

i seriously thought this was the funniest troll posts ever...

then i found out it was real

go check out his PT stats...LOL

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh man... did you SEE the ridiculous sample size?

[/ QUOTE ]

That was the best part....

[ QUOTE ]
this guys played like... 1000 hands on-line, and is winning at roughly a 10bb/100hands...

it's going to be an ugly, ugly fall...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree... Unless he sticks around here, buys some books and is on an extreme learning curve....

One suggestion Trying..... If you do start to have a downward swing don't be afraid to drop down a few levels to playing 1/2 or 2/4. In fact you may want to do that right now. It's hard to say on limited information but from your OP here and what I've read on your blog you're got A LOT to learn (and don't we all!!) I'd really suggest picking up some learning materials and studying up on the game, perfecting the new things you learn at some lower limit tables and moving up from there. On the other hand if you have some kind of unlimited bankroll and/or can freely reload go ahead and learn the game where you're at. I don't know much about the games at Pacific or UB... maybe they're really juicy?!

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Disclaimer: None of the following is intended as an attack. Take it as the best serious, honest advice I have to give you.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok this is my Best ever Lay Down, Id like to here your views on this hand and perhaps any great lay downs you've made yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I'm surprised you didn't get flamed by at least 10 seperate posters on this line alone.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'm on Pacific Poker $5-$10 as usual, In the Big Blind on a very loose table I look down and see KK with 5 limpers, now I no if I raise not one of these players will fold,

[/ QUOTE ]

You've certainly got the best hand here - not raising with the best hand is BAD. Your raise isn't intended to get people to fold - it's intended to build a pot with the best hand pre-flop and a hand that is a favorite to win (even against 5 loose opponents) at showdown. Also - if they're not going to fold now, they're probably not going to fold later either - why not juice up the pot with the best hand.

*** THE SMALL BLIND HAD AA SO I DIDNT HAVE THE BEST HAND HERE OR DOES KK BEAT AA IN THIS FORUM? *** thanks for the rest of your advice though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Everyone has already told you that you played this hand dreadfully. What is obvious from both this post and from your blog is your extremely weak-tight nature. Indeed, your blog section on "trainted cards:"

http://www.holdemlife.co.uk/64902/68049.html

further demonstrates your tendency to see monsters under the bed and to completely discount any outs you have unless they are crystal clear. I strongly suggest that you immediately read both TOP and Miller's SSHE.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

Welcome to the forum.

I think the turn check was worse than not raising preflop.

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.drunkandretired.com/images/may19/burt-j.jpg

"It's funny, because its bigger than a normal hat" - Turd Furguson

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahaahaha, wow!! that is so classic. i didn't think i'd see funny posts like this in ssh

btw, i'm a big time expos fan!

Re: My Best Ever Lay Down!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok I'm on Pacific Poker $5-$10 as usual, In the Big Blind on a very loose table I look down and see KK with 5 limpers, now I no if I raise not one of these players will fold,

[/ QUOTE ]

You've certainly got the best hand here.....

*** THE SMALL BLIND HAD AA SO I DIDNT HAVE THE BEST HAND HERE OR DOES KK BEAT AA IN THIS FORUM? *** thanks for the rest of your advice though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what we call "results oriented" thinking. When you are in the BB with 5 limpers and you see KK - you assume that you have the best hand. There's only one hand (AA) that beats you at that point and with no raise you're not giving anyone credit for having that hand (in fact I don't give anyone credit for having it if it's just one (and sometimes two) raises before me).

Just because you were actually beat the whole time does not justify playing the hand weak-tight and certainly doesn't make this "The Best Laydown Ever".