Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

Stars $15+$1 Turbo. Very early. I don't want to invest a lot of chips without seeing if my 88 is an overpair or a set so I just complete preflop (though of course I always end up doing so). Did I get too aggressive here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) converter

Hero (t1470)
BB (t1580)
UTG (t1390)
MP1 (t1830)
MP2 (t3500)
CO (t1630)
Button (t2100)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t30, CO calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t120</font>, BB folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1440</font>, CO calls t1140.

Turn: (t3000) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t3000) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t3000

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

Bump to get this thread above the non-strategy threads.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

I think this is somewhat suicidal readless.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is somewhat suicidal readless.

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Even in a $16? I'm gonna get called by flush draws, TPanyK... and I really don't want to give a free turn. This is definitely a fold/3 bet situation.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I think this is somewhat suicidal readless.

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Even in a $16? I'm gonna get called by flush draws, TPanyK... and I really don't want to give a free turn. This is definitely a fold/3 bet situation.

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Or a check raise on the flop to avoid this situation?

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

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Or a check raise on the flop to avoid this situation?

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A check raise is a LOT More likely than a bet/3 bet to get people to fold... and I really don't want to call a push.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

I would have probably done the same thing.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

What hands are going to fold to a c/r and not fold in this line?

What hands would push here that you would not like to call but will call your push?

What people/hands are going to fold to your flop bet but will bluff bet after you check?

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

The difference is that I'm putting them to the test not the other way around.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

I don't hate it but I'm less of a fan because of the fact that it is an unraised pot with low blinds. However, the only hands that I could see him having that you should fear is an overpair (unlikely) or a set. Possibly a suited connector such as ThJh.

It's just generally not my style to make huge pots early when I limp and I have something relatively weak like a low overpair. But I don't hate your play... You are just much more aggresive than I am early in SNGs.

My thoughts (no results yet)
 

No results yet. But I want to say this. Everyone makes valid points in this thread, except I don't think this is "suicidal".

Preflop: I'm out of position, I don't mind a multiway pot with my hand so I complete.

Flop: Ok the flop comes 3 unders with a flush draw possible. Bad board to give a free card too, and I likely have the best hand, so I bet.

Ok, some folds, a raise and it folds back to me. The problem is that I don't want to give him credit for a set or overpair immediately which would make me really hate folding. Calling is OK I guess but I hate seeing any heart or overcard on the turn. There are also some straight cards I don't want to see. So that leaves raise. The problem with raising is that any bet pot commits me. So why not make it look like a bluff and push, maybe 1 pair hands will call me?

I really did my best to not overthink this hand as I am wont to do. Where is the hole in this logic?

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

This situation is the reason that I polled the forum about the minimum raise question - and it seemed the consensus was that the min raise was a "come closer so I can slap you" play to get more of your chips. I mean is this a person re-raising with A7 or 2 hearts? I don't think its any pair bigger than yours because of the limping...I am stumped here. All said I think its better to get your chips in first in any pot, but is this a situation where you will only be called by hands that beat you?

Sorry for the rambling. I honestly don't know what the right play is here.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

huh?

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
but is this a situation where you will only be called by hands that beat you?

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I don't think it is, because this is only a $16.

I'm thinking in a higher buyin game I might lead the flop for less, and then 3 bet for less and fold to a push. But even that pot commits me... maybe the right play in a higher buyin game is to suck it up and give the cheap card (check/call?)

I feel like bet/folding this flop is far too weak tight. But I could be mistaken.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

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huh?

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Don't worry I am as confused as you are.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

Why don't you want people to fold. Your hand is not that good, you are out of position and there are alot of draws. I'm not trying to nickel and dime value with a hand this vulnerable. Let someone put some cash in the pot and then check raise and end it there. And of course you don't want to call a push. That's why you wouldn't. This way you know where you are because you're reacting to the 3rd bet where all the information is given off, not making it.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

It doesn't seem to me like you're putting them to much of a test. They call with hands that beat you and fold ones that don't. You don't give them a big chance to make a mistake with your line. (I'm obviously oversimplifying things, but you get the point).

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

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They call with hands that beat you

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Not that many hands beat me.

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and fold ones that don't. You don't give them a big chance to make a mistake with your line.

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Yes I do! I don't let them see a free card to pair one of their overs. They also might think they're making a "great call" with a 7.

Do you agree that I can't just call? And I don't like folding although it's certainly not unreasonable.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

Hi durron,

I don't like it too much. Try answering even the most simple questions, knowing that it's an unraised pot (it's crucial information here):

a) what hands that you beat are going to call you here? (very few, if any. You're putting a lot of pressure on any 7 here. Although I guess that in this buy-in you might get some bad calls, maybe even from a horrendously misplayed AK once in a while from a complete donk. but rarely. [Edit: AK hearts is surely calling, but not a lot a value there for you. The same for other high hearts]).

b) What hands that beat you are going to fold? (Probably none, considering the buy-in. I'd say more: big part of your EV here comes from people potentially folding overpairs, maybe even monster-pairs, with which they limped FP. However, generally speaking, trying to push them off those overpairs in such a buy-in, is a very risky and costly. That's why I don't like it).

So all-in-all, what is the value of this bet-raise-all-in (which is practically similar to c/r all-in in those circumstances [edit: although there are important differences])?

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

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So all-in-all, what is the value of this bet-raise-all-in (which is practically similar to c/r all-in in those circumstances [edit: although there are important differences])?

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Hi PrayingMantis-

Please read my reply with the subject heading "My Thoughts (no results yet).

Basically I chose this line because I didn't like my other choices. I don't like this line either (why I posted the hand) but I couldn't think of a better way to play it. (Other than "no set no bet"? LOL)

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

When I said this is semi-suicidal isn't because you could very well be ahead but that you have no idea where you are in the hand so you are just shoving your chips in on the flop and hoping for the best.

Without a good read (which you rarely have this early in a tournament) I would prefer to have an idea where I am in the hand before I make a decision to committ myself.

I'd have folded too the min-bet though, I am weak-tight.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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I'd have folded too the min-bet though, I am weak-tight.

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Like I said, folding is definitely not "bad". I just thought at the time that pushing was +EV and thus better than folding.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

Why not check-raise? I mean, you're not married to your hand yet, check-raising gets in money on a spot like this, you're in the SB. If a bad turn card comes, you can easily check-fold your way out of this. If a good turn card comes, you can lead turn more soundly.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

I'd prefer the lower variance route of finding a better spot later is all.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

Check raise, fold to a 3 bet... and I suppose I can safely fold if I get a call, lead turn and he pushes? I feel like that costs a lot of chips...

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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Preflop: I'm out of position, I don't mind a multiway pot with my hand so I complete.

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Good.

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Flop: Ok the flop comes 3 unders with a flush draw possible.

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And some straight draws. But remember it's an unraised pot, at a $16 buy-in, when the blinds are still low. People can limp with all sort of things, and they are not very wrong doing it, especially from LP. 2 pair isn't very probable with the specific flop, but it's also a possibility. Surely sets, and of course - a few overpairs, maybe not AA-KK, since it wasn't an open-limp, but people are sometimes doing strange things PF with big pairs. 99-TT is very reasonable and fits the post-flop action too. The more I think about it, you'll be facing a hand like ATs-KJs hearts a big percentage of the time. It's a hand that is not folding to a reraise all-in on the flop, but loses a lot of value if it doesn't improve on the turn.

So, there is indeed a chance your hand is the best here, but maybe not by far if at all (considering pot equity at showdown againt strong draws) and it's a spot to be played very carefuly. I think about it this way: if someone limped with 75 here, is he just going to win my whole stack because I flopped a marginal overpair?

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Bad board to give a free card too, and I likely have the best hand, so I bet.

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Betting makes sense, but the raise you're facing is a warning sign. Someone likes his hand. It doesn't look like someone is just making a move on you. And it looks a bit more probable that it's a made hand or a very strong draw (overs with hearts, or some SF combination) than garbage hearts (i.e, only one over card) or just a straight-draw, or a bluff. I woudn't commit myself at that point, since I think you have relatively small FE, or even 0 FE. I'd continue very carefully. I'll call the raise and go from there. I think the stack sizes on Stars allow you to make this bet you made, and still call a raise, and then letting go with a a rather healthy stack. It is a toughish spot.

Edit: folding to the raise isn't terrible too.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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I think the stack sizes on Stars allow you to make this bet you made, and still call a raise, and then letting go with a a rather healthy stack.

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How do you play this specific turn if you call?

Edit: So you think raising is the worst of the three options? Even at this buyin?

The point of the raise is to charge draws and also bet for value against a 7 who can't fold top pair.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

It's a line that would work. If you think check-raising costs too many chips against a better hand, then why'd you take the line you took?

I guess bet/calling with intention of leading turn would work, but meh...

Remember:
1. Deny free cards
2. Fold to better hands
3. Get more out of worse hands

I think check-raising does all of these fairly well, and gives you more information against non-donksih opponents. Unless you plan on bet-folding, you are losing a lot of chips here.

I like this line here, especially acting first. I really think check-raising is the best idea, unless you can 3-bet here without having to post on 2+2 (happens when you're on party and your opponents suck, plus you have less chips).

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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The point of the raise is to charge draws and also bet for value against a 7 who can't fold top pair.

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But there are alot of conceivable draws (flush + 2 overs) that would be perfectly correct in calling you. Not to mention sets or overpairs that are very conceivable (more likely sets) that have you crushed. Again, I don't like making huge pots early in tournaments (low blinds) in multi-way, unraised pots when I have a marginal hand like a low overpair. The fact that this is an unraised pot is huge, IMO.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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How do you play this specific turn if you call?

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Basically I'm going for the cheapest possible SD, the way it was played on the flop. A face card and/or heart on the turn kills this hand for me, but I think that I'll tend to check/fold most other cards too. Pot is 720, you have 1200, it's a very awkward situation. Had you taken the check-raise (not all-in!) route on the flop, and assuming villain only calls the raise and does not push (which makes for an easy fold for you), a turn lead would have make more sense. I don't see much value in leading the turn in our scenario. What I'm saying that if non scare card hits, it might get check-check, and you might even win a SD against an unimproved big draw. Your position sucks. It's an unraised pot. Your hand is marginal. You are facing resistance and strength. What can you do about it?

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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What can you do about it?

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Check/fold the flop? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I think the best line is probably c/r the flop with the intention of checking the turn and playing poker after that.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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What can you do about it?

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Check/fold the flop? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

I think the best line is probably c/r the flop with the intention of checking the turn and playing poker after that.

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I'm glad to see we're getting somewhere with check raising line because I think it is by far the best line. Looks like you are understanding why. Whether you check or lead the turn is your call. I'd lead half the pot with your stacks and fold to a raise. If called check fold the river.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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I'm glad to see we're getting somewhere with check raising line because I think it is by far the best line. Looks like you are understanding why. Whether you check or lead the turn is your call. I'd lead half the pot with your stacks and fold to a raise. If called check fold the river.

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Any turn lead pot commits me. Thus I check turn [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Otherwise I should have just bet/3 bet the flop to begin with.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

Check/raise, for sure. Someone did similar to me with 88 the other day on a 7 high flop, betting 300 into a 100 pot, there were two hearts on the flop and I had AJh. I pushed, he called and I hit both J and A (both diamonds) and was ahead with 14 outs anyway. Bear in mind you're probably behind to any two suited overcards.

By the way it was 14 because he had 8h.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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Check/raise, for sure. Someone did similar to me with 88 the other day on a 7 high flop, betting 300 into a 100 pot, there were two hearts on the flop and I had AJh. I pushed, he called and I hit both J and A (both diamonds) and was ahead with 14 outs anyway. Bear in mind you're probably behind to any two suited overcards.

By the way it was 14 because he had 8h.

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So your Villian called off all his chips as a slight favorite and thus that's the correct play?

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

"IF" I did choose to bet I would bet less on the flop...something like 75-85. I want to eliminate all the garbage hands that have overcards whilst keeping the pot as small as possible in case I'm faced with aggression.

This usually in turn results in their raise being smaller than it would be against a larger bet, and makes the hand easier to play from your perspective, at least it does for me.

I basically don't bet 120 because it makes it somewhat more likely the pot will get out of control, yet I don't feel like it has that much greater an effect than a 75 chip bet. Also if I choose to fold to the future flop action, I've lost less chips.

There is no chance I am going to get broke on this flop with 88.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

I definitely check this flop.
There's really nothing wrong with seeing what develops.
If a scare card comes on the turn and you lose the pot, don't worry about it, your hand is pretty weak here anyway.

If you really want to get your chips in the middle flat call the flop and push the turn. At least then you let KQh make a mistake.

Re: My thoughts (no results yet)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Check/raise, for sure. Someone did similar to me with 88 the other day on a 7 high flop, betting 300 into a 100 pot, there were two hearts on the flop and I had AJh. I pushed, he called and I hit both J and A (both diamonds) and was ahead with 14 outs anyway. Bear in mind you're probably behind to any two suited overcards.

By the way it was 14 because he had 8h.

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So your Villian called off all his chips as a slight favorite and thus that's the correct play?

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With 14 outs, I am 51% to make my hand by the river, as I am all-in on the flop. Therefore, I am the slight favourite. Not he.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

I think my line here (late to the party it seems) is to C/R the flop to maximize fold equity, fold to a three bet on the flop.

If I'm called on my flop C/R, I probably push a non-heart/non-royal turn. That may be a bit over aggressive though.

Re: Early bet/3bet with 88 on the flop
 

All i know is that if the SB is betting the pot into 3 players , im putting him on at least top pair, or 2 pair. So if im the CO here, im not raising your pot bet with anything less.