10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

This was the highest stake limit game I'd ever played.

I'm in the Cut off with AsQc. Two limpers to me and I raise to 20.

Small Blind- Terrible player; any ace; any suited calls.

Big Blind- Solid player- I've only seen him show good hands down; but he seems to be steaming quite a bit after getting chased down by garbage a couple of hands recently- 3 bets

2 limpers fold.

I call 1 more; SB calls

Flop- Ah 4c 4d
checked to me; I bet; both call

Turn- 6h

checked to me;

I bet
SB raises
BB 3 bets
Me? <font color="red"> </font>

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

Fold. You're definitely beat by BB b/c he should fear an ace if he doesn't have one himself. He probably has AK or even AA. SB could also have you beat. Cya later.

Jeff

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

Thanks.

I thought it was an easy fold as well.

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

Yeah this is a turbo muck.

result
 

yeah.

i was surprised by the results.

SB called

river was a 2h; check bet check

SB shows A 2 off suit

BB shows Ah Jh

I put in about 10 total hours at the 10-20 game there and it played practically like a 2/4 online table

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

in situations where a good player is squeezed in between a fish and you, you must give less credit to his bets and raises after the fish.

Barron

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

good point; but are you saying you'd consider calling/capping in this spot?

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

I don't know, but get the hell out of there. Drive up to Tunica to play poker.

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

heh.

this was wed/thurs last week. luckily i got out of there before the storm.

i can't believe that the tunica games could be worse than the new orleans game though

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

[ QUOTE ]
He probably has AK or even AA

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would a solid player 3-bet AA on the turn here?

Lawrence

A much bigger issue?
 

I wouldn't fold. AK is the only that figures to have you beat on this board and you have 6 outs to at least tie that hand if you're not still ahead.

On a side note: Shouldn't you be bugging out of New Orleans instead of playing poker?

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

Turbo-mucking is a terrible play. Think a little.

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

This is NOT an easy fold! You are probably ahead!

Re: A much bigger issue?
 

well; i do still think the fold was the right play.

the problem with my analysis at the time was that i put BB on exactly AK; which is kind of silly.

Re: result
 

I hate to say I told you so, but...

As DcifrThs points out, you need to give less credit to bb here for several reasons. Contrary to the other advice you received, I think this is an easier call than it is a fold.

Re: A much bigger issue?
 

Why do you think folding is the right play? It's not.

Think a little more, apply Bay's theorum a little more. amd read hands a little more, and you'll see why.

Re: result
 

well.

i was obviously ahead when i folded; (though i would have lost to the river).

i do think i gave too much credit to the crappy SB's check raise on the turn; and didn't give acknowledge that BB's 3 bet was an isolation attempt..that worked.

i'm still not convinced that calling 2 bets their (with a cap certainly possible) then calling whatever action is on the river when i don't improve will win me money most of the time.

but obviously...i'm not sure and that's why i posted the hand

(showing my ignorance here; but I don't know what Bay's Theorem is or says).

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

[ QUOTE ]
good point; but are you saying you'd consider calling/capping in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

its just something to note.

what throws me off is the BB's 3bet then flop check. id be happier to lay it down if he bet the flop got called in 2 spots, then checked and 3bet the sb's turn c'r.

as it went though there's a chance he could have something weaker than the ace but AQ i dont think is good enough of the time to call it down in this exact spot ... but its much much much closer than everybody seems to think (terms like "turbo muck" CERTAINLY do not apply to this fold)

you see this all the time in higher games, excessive action given with not great hands vs. a fish and 2 great players in order to get to the showdown HU vs. the fish.

mike l. also said in his post about toughest games is that those games include those that never fodl when you want them to.

that said, i still think this particular fold was ok...it really looks like a nice nut boat...but thats whatmakes me wanna call it down...live action though id fold it.

Barron

Re: result
 

deleted

Re: A much bigger issue?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't fold. AK is the only that figures to have you beat on this board and you have 6 outs to at least tie that hand if you're not still ahead.

On a side note: Shouldn't you be bugging out of New Orleans instead of playing poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

i think AA is much more likely probability wise given the flop check after the 3bet than AK despite the odds against it combinatorically. AK will still bet this flop b/c there can be 2 other aces out...AA, however, having 75% of the aces locked up would want to give lesser hands a card to catch.

Barron

Re: A much bigger issue?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think folding is the right play? It's not.

Think a little more, apply Bay's theorum a little more. amd read hands a little more, and you'll see why.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont know...its close, but not an altogether call lestat. villian checked the flop after 3betting preflop out of the blinds. you very very rarely see the hand he actually had do this. its mostly either JJ or something thats scared or AA thats lookin for some action.

-Barron

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He probably has AK or even AA

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would a solid player 3-bet AA on the turn here?

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c hero showed enough strength to warrant it and it gives the sb a chance to cap and lead the river. those bets garnered from the fish more than make up for the 1 or 2bbs lost by isolating out the hero.

Barron

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turbo-mucking is a terrible play. Think a little.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didnt really read the player descriptions and didnt notice hero raised from the cutoff. By the way not crazy about your "think a little" comment. But I'll bite my tounge I guess.

Also if the BB is rock tight and not capable of making a move or getting fancy this very well might be a fold. The fact that the turn two better is an aggro fish is what makes it a interesting spot.

Edited because I decided not to call you an [censored] in so many words.

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

contrary to the results, if you fold here you aren't giving up all that much.

I'd probable fold here close to 100% of the time.

Re: A much bigger issue?
 

Yeah, but there's an ace on board and OP has one in his hand. Yeah, he COULD have AA, but you can't fear it in this big of a pot. OP also said bb might've been tilting. I'm not folding.

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

lol-

I didn't mean anything personal by "think a little". I just wanted to point out that people who are saying this is an easy fold are not thinking enough about the hand, the board, and OP's description of the players. (is that better?).

OP has an ace, there was an ace on the flop, and the board now reads: A446 with a possible flush draw. While AA or AK are possible, they should not be too great a concern.

OP also mentions the bb might be steaming. This certainly isn't an auto-fold and I'm not sure I'd ever fold here.

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
i was obviously ahead when i folded; (though i would have lost to the river).


[/ QUOTE ]

The 2 was counterfeited by the board pair.

Re: result
 

flush was made on the river...though that obviously has nothing to do with whether the fold was good or not [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

though i still think it was ok

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol-

I didn't mean anything personal by "think a little". I just wanted to point out that people who are saying this is an easy fold are not thinking enough about the hand, the board, and OP's description of the players. (is that better?).

OP has an ace, there was an ace on the flop, and the board now reads: A446 with a possible flush draw. While AA or AK are possible, they should not be too great a concern.

OP also mentions the bb might be steaming. This certainly isn't an auto-fold and I'm not sure I'd ever fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I got ya. After I read your post and reread his post, looking at his position and player descriptions, I did realize I was wrong in my first response. I probably shouldnt get pissed at you for pointing it out.

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

[ QUOTE ]
This was the highest stake limit game I'd ever played.

I'm in the Cut off with AsQc. Two limpers to me and I raise to 20.

Small Blind- Terrible player; any ace; any suited calls.

Big Blind- Solid player- I've only seen him show good hands down; but he seems to be steaming quite a bit after getting chased down by garbage a couple of hands recently- 3 bets

2 limpers fold.

I call 1 more; SB calls

Flop- Ah 4c 4d
checked to me; I bet; both call

Turn- 6h

checked to me;

I bet
SB raises
BB 3 bets
Me? <font color="red"> </font>[ QUOTE ]
yeah.

i was surprised by the results.

SB called

river was a 2h; check bet check

SB shows A 2 off suit

BB shows Ah Jh

I put in about 10 total hours at the 10-20 game there and it played practically like a 2/4 online table


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

You've got the Ace of hearts appearing twice in this hand and it could make a difference, especially if one of the 4's on the flop was, instead, a heart. Was the eventual winning hand a flush or two pair? The possibility of someone having top pair and a flush draw on the turn could make a difference in what you want to do on the turn, or at least what you have in mind as to what your opponents have on the turn.

-WT

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

Ok, I've thought through this hand quite a few times and spent like 20 minutes doing so.

Preflop the SB can have anything as noted by the OP, but the range of hands for the BB is less if he's solid, so we can say big pocket pair and possibly AK.

I definitely raise an eye when both the SB and BB just check-call the flop here. It just seems a little strange here when the OP has the AQ, an ace is out on such a non co-ordinated board.

The turn shouldn't really help anyone so it's a safe card. I'm still pegging BB on a pocket pair at this point and SB on a weak ace, but I'll have to take note of his post flop play tendancies to really gauge how he plays his Ax hands to know the strength. But again, if BB is a solid player he's gotta know that a pocket pair is no good against an Ace board with two opponents in it - of which one raised preflop.

So this is indeed confusing for me and raises the other brow.

I'm clearly thinking that there's a small chance that BB is waiting to snipe a trap with AK. I don't put him on AA here just simply because there's such a miniscule chance of him having one if I peg the SB on an ace too.

Having said all this, the OP is either really ahead on this board or really behind. If there's a chance of being sniped, I actually think the play to do here is check the turn and call whatever/whoever bets the river and bet the river if checked too.

Do we give up some EV here - definitely. But we don't get have to fear a check-raise and the cost of 3 BB to take the pot down.

Lawrence

Re: A much bigger issue?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP also said bb might've been tilting. I'm not folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah thats the clincher. and an important fact i totally forgot during all this.

im seeing this down to the river vs. a possible tilter.

its like adding 4 or more outs to your hand.

Barron

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

ooops

yes. i screwed it up.

Flop A was NOT a heart; one of the 4's was.

i'm dumb

Re: 10-20 live hand Harrahs New Orleans
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is NOT an easy fold! You are probably ahead!

[/ QUOTE ]
Lol, I hope youre not always this paranoid. This is an easy fold.

Re: result
 

[ QUOTE ]
flush was made on the river...though that obviously has nothing to do with whether the fold was good or not [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

though i still think it was ok

[/ QUOTE ]
This fact is important, another small but significant reason your turn fold was correct is becuase you can still get outdrawn on the river the minority of time you are in the lead on the turn. This was a good fold, dont worry about the results.