The US Prison System
 

Here is what happens when you go to prison:

If you are awaiting trial or recently sentenced then you are new and don't know anybody. You dont have any useful skills and do not have any of the important jobs that allow you smuggling and trade.
The other prisoners will immediately judge you by the crime you commited (whether it was violent or non-violent). They are hardened and veterens of this sort of hell hole.

If you are young or attractive, then you are the closest thing to a women inside of the prison. So you will be approached by many who will offer you material possesions or protection in exchange for you to be their wife. If you refuse to be someone's wife you will basically have to fight them off. Of course in the movies, Hero just gets in a fist fight and its over. More realistic in Prison is that you'd have to stab someone or kill them for everyone to get off your back, even then if you make enemies with a Prison Gang, then gang rape is a strong possibility.

When you sign up with a prison gang, you can never leave and have to do anything they say. those are the rules.

prison gangs control the prison, not the guards. the guards mostly make sure that no one escapes. they are out numbered and prisoners run the prison basically (the kitcheen and other jobs). The prison gang leaders control these jobs and the prison's commerce and economy. In exchange for this power, they keep the prison under control. If the prisoners are busy fighting eachother, then they arent fighting with the guards.

Now, how is it possible for this enviorment to reform a prisoner. Their experiences inside will not inspire them to be a better model citizen. They will not learn anything but deep hatred.

Human beings need to be free. When you imprison someone, it can never make them more emotionally or mentally healthier in the long term.

Seperating men from the opposite sex is not a healthy enviroment.

The only time someone should go to this type of enviroment is when they are going without parole, when the state has decided that they are not rehabilitatable.

There are striking similarities between boot camp and prison. Except boot camp aims to build confidence and create unity, while prison aims to destroy confidence and create disunity. Unity among prisoners is not good for guards. Because these men are prisoners, basically slaves.

When someone commits a non-violent crime, what have they dont wrong against society except financial damage? If someone owes society in money, then they should not be subjected to this type of enviroment which will turn them violent.

There needs to be some sort of system specifically for non-violent offenders that allows them to pay-back society, while at the sametime reforming them.

People who say "they did the crime, they do the time" need to realize the correlation between poverty and crime. Someone lives in the ghetto and doesnt have a strong family. They rob a store. They go to jail. GAME OVER.

Seriously, its over for them. What kind of job will they get on the outside? How will their time in prison effect them? If the fathered a baby before going to jail, will he live a similar path?

There isnt too much talk about prison reform because it mostly effects poor people, who are of course the most likely to commit a crime.

And of course there are drug related crimes. Why do people sell drugs? To make money? Do they deserve to be put into this type of enviroment. Is society better off putting them into this type of enviroment? Right now, it is easier to just throw someone away then to deal with the reason why they are selling drugs.

Re: The US Prison System
 

politics?

Re: The US Prison System
 

wow, you should really stop watching OZ.

Re: The US Prison System
 

The father of a friend of mine was recently released from prison. He spent 4 1/2 years there for white collar crimes that included bilking millions. He lost everything and now him and his wife live in a trailer park.

I bet he'll never do that again.

Re: The US Prison System
 

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wow, you should really stop watching OZ.

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ive never seen an episode of Oz.

why do you think what i wrote is incorrect?

Re: The US Prison System
 

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wow, you should really stop watching OZ.

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because I have been to prison. I would bet money that you have not, based on what you have written.

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politics?

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wow, you should really stop watching OZ.

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I bet when you talk you sound like Charlie Brown's teacher.

Re: The US Prison System
 

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because I have been to prison. I would bet money that you have not, based on what you have written.

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How long were you in prison? for what crime? what state?

from what ive read, what ive written about is for prisoners with longer sentences.

if you got a 3 year sentence of something like that, then obviously your experience will be different. also, the prison you went to california or texas or ny your experience will be different from New Hampshire or Maine.

i would like to hear your thoughts and i am open to changing my mind, which is why i put this here and not the politics forum. if youve been in the politics forum, you will know that nothing is ever discussed at all, it is just a bunch of lunatics.

Re: The US Prison System
 

Oh I see, this is the part where you pick apart the details of my prison time in an attempt to convince yourself or others that original post was in fact true? No thanks. I'm not really sure why the amount of time spent would matter. It wasn't very long, however there was no time stipulation in your post. Suffice it to say I was in a west coast prison where there were inmates convicted of murder, and your whole fantasy of prison rape is simply not a reflection of any reality that I witnessed while there, or heard of from anyone else who had been to other prisons. What exactly is your basis for making these claims?

Re: The US Prison System
 

Some guys just wanna get buttraped, don't try to convince him. He has already decided that in order to get buttraped, he'd better go to prison.

Re: The US Prison System
 

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wow, you should really stop watching OZ.

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I know at least 4 people who have been to prison. 2 of them I was good friends with growing up, and since they've got out I haven't said too much to them about it, but from what they've said to me it isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

The two I know best went to federal prisons. I always thought they were considered the "pound me in the aZZ prisons, but I guess I was wrong" my friend said they are more laid back than the state prisons.

A friend of mine's dad will be released in 2006 after serving over 9 years for dealing drugs. When the inmate's mother died, he was allowed to travel back to his hometown to be at her funeral, and stay overnight at his house with his wife. His chaperone also stayed with the family. I've never heard of anything like that before.

I used to watch Oz and think it was what jail was "REALLY" like. Guess not

Re: The US Prison System
 

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The father of a friend of mine was recently released from prison. He spent 4 1/2 years there for white collar crimes that included bilking millions. He lost everything and now him and his wife live in a trailer park.

I bet he'll never do that again.

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zing!

Re: The US Prison System
 

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So you will be approached by many who will offer you material possesions or protection in exchange for you to be their wife. If you refuse to be someone's wife you will basically have to fight them off.


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From what Ive learned, this is a myth.

Re: The US Prison System
 

From what Ive read, every report puts a minimum of 10% of inmates of having been raped. But rape isnt the point. The point is that prison's do not rehabilitate.

Re: The US Prison System
 

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wow, you should really stop watching OZ.

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The two I know best went to federal prisons. I always thought they were considered the "pound me in the aZZ prisons, but I guess I was wrong" my friend said they are more laid back than the state prisons.


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I had a friend when I was a teenager in Arkansas who had done a few years in the prison featured in the movie 'Brubaker' (Cummins). His advice to me was: "If you're ever in trouble and you know they're coming for you, get to another state and do a crime there; then turn yourself in to the FBI. Maybe you'll do federal time. 'Cause you don't want to go to prison in Arkansas."

- He did mention regarding rape that there were enough bitches selling ass for protection that if you were willing to fight, you wouldn't get [censored].

Re: The US Prison System
 

I haven't read your post yet but I have a feeling that is is going to be a criticism so I'll say this....

There isn't much going to change in the prison system. It is unlikely you'll see a politician running as pro-inmate or fighting for prisoners rights or their actually being a real push in congress or on the local level to initiate legislation helping prisoners.

mmmm ok lets see how I did.

Re: The US Prison System
 

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From what Ive read, every report puts a minimum of 10% of inmates of having been raped. But rape isnt the point. The point is that prison's do not rehabilitate.

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addressing your new point, prisions dont masquerade as being rehabilitative. they are punative.

texas alone struggles w/ housing all of its inmates and giving the electric chair to the others. no time for counseling.

Re: The US Prison System
 

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From what Ive read, every report puts a minimum of 10% of inmates of having been raped. But rape isnt the point. The point is that prison's do not rehabilitate.

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addressing your new point, prisions dont masquerade as being rehabilitative. they are punative.

texas alone struggles w/ housing all of its inmates and giving the electric chair to the others. no time for counseling.

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No time for fact checking either, it would seem. Texas uses lethal injection .

Re: The US Prison System
 

This post will hopefully be moved but perhaps had you bothered becoming semi-literate in the topic, you would realize that this has been better covered elsewhere. Otherwise the world might have been spared your childish, movie inspired version of life in the big house.

But hey you're KKF!!! You rock dewd, how's mahatma doing?!1!!!1

Re: The US Prison System
 

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From what Ive read, every report puts a minimum of 10% of inmates of having been raped.

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What about the reports in this thread?

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No time for fact checking either, it would seem. Texas uses lethal injection .

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eh, just a brain slip.

EDIT: deleted comment which belongs in politics as does this thread.

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No time for fact checking either, it would seem. Texas uses lethal injection .

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eh, just a brain slip.

btw, im vehemently opposed to the death penatly.

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I've already written long posts on the subject that I won't repeat, but I've been on a capital murder jury that sent a piece of human [censored] to death row. Render unto Caeser, bitches. Some fuckers don't deserve to live.

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All I know is that if I ever end up in prison, I'm either going to have to kill someone or become somebody's bitch on my first day.

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PUT ’EM DOWN, TAKE ’EM OUT!

Knife Fighting Techniques from Folsom Prison

by Don Pentecost

Anyone can be the subject of a knife attack. Maximize your chances for survival by learning realistic aspects of knife attack and defense. These deadly techniques were developed in the violence of Folsom Prison and go far beyond what you learn in karate class. 5 1/2 x 8 1/2, softcover, photos, 64 pp. ISBN 0873644840 $14.00

http://www.paladin-press.com/

Re: The US Prison System
 

[ QUOTE ]
PUT ’EM DOWN, TAKE ’EM OUT!

Knife Fighting Techniques from Folsom Prison

by Don Pentecost

Anyone can be the subject of a knife attack. Maximize your chances for survival by learning realistic aspects of knife attack and defense. These deadly techniques were developed in the violence of Folsom Prison and go far beyond what you learn in karate class. 5 1/2 x 8 1/2, softcover, photos, 64 pp. ISBN 0873644840 $14.00

http://www.paladin-press.com/

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Yeah, but what good is that gonna do me if I can't smuggle a shiv in from the laundry room?

Re: The US Prison System
 

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No time for fact checking either, it would seem. Texas uses lethal injection .

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eh, just a brain slip.

btw, im vehemently opposed to the death penatly.

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I've already written long posts on the subject that I won't repeat, but I've been on a capital murder jury that sent a piece of human [censored] to death row. Render unto Caeser, bitches. Some fuckers don't deserve to live.

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Killing a prisoner does society absolutely no good except revenge. All morality aside, it costs more to kill a prisoner than imprison him for life, the death penalty is not a deterent either. I'm glad it made u so happy sending a man to die though.

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No one but a child molestor or rapist deserves to be sentenced to rape.

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All morality aside, it costs more to kill a prisoner than imprison him for life, the death penalty is not a deterent either. I'm glad it made u so happy sending a man to die though.

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Very much so. Anybody who would stab a woman in the back, cut her son's throat, and stab a nine year-old girl, leaving her to die, should burn in hell as quickly as possible.

As to your other mistaken point re: cost: care to back it up with fact?

Re: The US Prison System
 

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Yeah, but what good is that gonna do me if I can't smuggle a shiv in from the laundry room?

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You got it all wrong, dude.

Your homies hide it in the laundry room, you catch the mutha with it when he wipes the sweat out of his eyes. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: The US Prison System
 

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All morality aside, it costs more to kill a prisoner than imprison him for life, the death penalty is not a deterent either. I'm glad it made u so happy sending a man to die though.

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Very much so. Anybody who would stab a woman in the back, cut her son's throat, and stab a nine year-old girl, leaving her to die, should burn in hell as quickly as possible.

As to your other mistaken point re: cost: care to back it up with fact?

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Here's a link.

The reason that it's more costly is due to court costs due to the lengthy appeals process that's involved with death penalty cases.

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All morality aside, it costs more to kill a prisoner than imprison him for life, the death penalty is not a deterent either. I'm glad it made u so happy sending a man to die though.

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Very much so. Anybody who would stab a woman in the back, cut her son's throat, and stab a nine year-old girl, leaving her to die, should burn in hell as quickly as possible.

As to your other mistaken point re: cost: care to back it up with fact?

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Here's a link.

The reason that it's more costly is due to court costs due to the lengthy appeals process that's involved with death penalty cases.

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Those costs are only up front.

Per cell long term costs of LWOP (Life w/o Parole):

D. THE COST OF LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE VS THE DEATH PENALTY
Many opponents present, as fact, that the cost of the death penalty is so expensive (at least $2 million per case?), that we must choose life without parole ("LWOP") at a cost of $1 million for 50 years. Predictably, these pronouncements may be entirely false. JFA estimates that LWOP cases will cost $1.2 million - $3.6 million more than equivalent death penalty cases.
________________________________________
Cost of Life Without Parole: Cases
Equivalent To Death Penalty Cases
1. $34,200/year (1) for 50 years (2), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$75,000 (4) for trial & appeals = $3.01 million
2. Same, except 3% (3) = $4.04 million
3. Same, except 4% (3) = $5.53 million

Cost of Death Penalty Cases
$60,000/year (1) for 6 years (5), at
a 2% (3) annual cost increase, plus
$1.5 million (4) for trial & appeals = $1.88 million
Same, except 3% (3) = $1.89 million
Same, except 4% (3) = $1.91 million



************************************************** ******

This does not factor in the cost of geriatric care in prison, which is around $75k per year per prisoner.

Re: The US Prison System
 

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There isnt too much talk about prison reform because it mostly effects poor people, who are of course the most likely to commit a crime.

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Prison reform has been discussed and implemented to some degree semi regularly over the last 100 or so years; in that period there has been more emphasis on rehabilitation. It most recently received attention in the 60s. In the 60s many radicals thought rehabilitation was subverted by too harsh of a structure in the California prisons and worked to chage it. Rules mellowed and prison guards were given less discretion and stricter procedures for handling inmates. Racism of the guards was one of the justifications in putting in these procedures. There is a good argument to be made that weakening the autonomy of the guards allowed the prison gangs to flourish to an unprecedented level. One example of this is the network between prison reformers, George Jackson / the Black Guerilla Family and the Black Panthers. You might find the book the Road to Hell interesting. It talks a little bit about the above but it is mostly the story of George Jackson and the bloodiest inmate uprising at San Quentin.

Not all reform was that ineffective, a good example would be Texas. They were run by the trusty system where the most hardened and institutionalized convicts were given positions of authority and kept order. Some weaker inmates were held in sexual slavery. The trusty system was eventually overcome and changed due to the efforts of reformers. I wonder though if that really changed the level of violence in the prisons.

The book 20,000 Years in Sing Sing was written by Lewis E. Lawes. He was the warden during the 20s and 30s and was a major reformer in bringing some of the focus of prison time to rehabilitating the inmate. He speaks to some of the issues you bring up. I think the audience at that time was less skeptical than we are about the willingness of the criminal to change. It was fairly common to view men as being beaten down by social forces outside of their control and to think that if conditions were different the men would be too.

Both eras mentioned above were liberal in the progressive sense. I don't think too much happens in terms of prison reform when the mood of the country is conservative. I think the best that could be hoped for is the elimination of mandatory minimums and maybe a halt to the drug war. Even that though is wildly optimistic. If the U.S.A. was only fiscally conservative I could see it but we are more socially conservative than fiscally.

regards,

raisins

Re: The US Prison System
 

I really like your thinking on this. Never really thought about prison this way before, but it really makes sense.

Re: The US Prison System
 

Generally speaking, there are 4 basic theories that underly the purpose of punishment:

Retribution

Incapacitation

Deterrence and

Rehabilitation

Rehabilitation gained favor among decision makers and commentators during the period between about 1900 and the late 1970's. Since then, it has lost its popularity.

Currently, the theory of "limited retributivism" is gaining in popularity. The upper and lower bounds of sentences are set according to the principle of retribution, and where a sentence falls between those bounds is determined by weighing the other 3 purposes.

It is also interesting to note that several states have removed rehabilitation as a purpose from their sentencing statutes.

Your argument assumes that rehabilition is (or should be) the sole purpose of punishment. This is certainly not the case, and in some states, rehabilitation has been removed from the sentencing calculus entirely.

Also, as another poster already mentioned, advocating a "softer" system of criminal punishment is politically unpallatable. In election campaigns, it's really easy to create a 20 second sound-byte that someone is "soft on crime", but it's a lot more difficult to explain why one thinks prison reform is desireable or necessary.