80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

6 handed 80/160 game at bay 101.

game has a couple of wild spots in it, but they are not involved in this hand.

i raise UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], folded to tommy angelo in the sb who 3-bets. bb folds. i call.

turn: K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

tommy bets. i call.

turn: y [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

he checks. i hesitate for a second and then check behind.

river: J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

he checks. i bet. he calls.

thoughts?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Why the turn check?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

When he checks that turn i think he has QQ or JJ a lot. I bet there.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

well, tommy has said on this forum that he only raises high pocket pairs from the blinds.

are you folding to a river cr?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

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When he checks that turn i think he has QQ or JJ a lot. I bet there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has QQ/JJ a fair amount, but he's also got Chris crushed occasionally too. And I don't know that he's calling two bets with QQ/JJ UI.

Rob

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

This smells like queens.

Bet the turn.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
When he checks that turn i think he has QQ or JJ a lot. I bet there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has QQ/JJ a fair amount, but he's also got Chris crushed occasionally too. And I don't know that he's calling two bets with QQ/JJ UI.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

so rob,

what about the river bet? for value against QQ/99?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

I havent played with Tommy Rob, but from what the posts of his i have read, i dont see him going for a c/r here very often.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

"turn: y"

id put him on a pair of Ys and bet the turn.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

I always bet the y of diamonds

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Don't play against Tommy Angelo!

Vince

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Oh besides not playing against Tommy you could not have played that hand any better. Bet the turn and Tommy mucks a weaker hand. Check the turn and bet the river and you get him to pay off with his smaller pair. Perfect play. You don't gain anything by betting the turn. Either you are beat or Tommy has 2 outs.

Vince

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Don't you mean a pair of "Z"s?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

"Don't you mean a pair of "Z"s?"

if by Z you mean A, then yes.

sheesh i need to start getting to work here...

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

I find it funny (as in haha) that everyone seems to know how Tommy plays. I wonder how often he uses this to his advantage. I'm not trying to diss on anyone with this post.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
Oh besides not playing against Tommy you could not have played that hand any better. Bet the turn and Tommy mucks a weaker hand. Check the turn and bet the river and you get him to pay off with his smaller pair. Perfect play. You don't gain anything by betting the turn. Either you are beat or Tommy has 2 outs.

Vince

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thinking on the hand too. Tommy seems to be notoriously good at folding when beat. Why not give him his chance at 2 outs, if it means he'll pay off a river bet?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Why are you so concerned about posting hands involving Tommy Angelo?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh besides not playing against Tommy you could not have played that hand any better. Bet the turn and Tommy mucks a weaker hand. Check the turn and bet the river and you get him to pay off with his smaller pair. Perfect play. You don't gain anything by betting the turn. Either you are beat or Tommy has 2 outs.

Vince

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thinking on the hand too. Tommy seems to be notoriously good at folding when beat. Why not give him his chance at 2 outs, if it means he'll pay off a river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

because

[ QUOTE ]
Tommy seems to be notoriously good at folding when beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

You don't think Tommy pays off on the river more often when his opponent checks through the turn? If we assume CDC only puts in one bet on the river since he won't call a check raise, then he only has to get the extra bet out of Tommy, once for every time Tommy draws out for it to be 0 EV. I'll assume that the times Tommy has CDC beat when CDC bets the turn, cancel out with the times Tommy has CDC beat when he checks behind on the turn, and then bets the river. If that made any sense.

Basically, if Tommy's drawing to 2 outs, he hits 1/23 times. You really don't think he pays off a river bet on a blank at least that often after the action so far?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

[ QUOTE ]


turn: y [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

he checks. i hesitate for a second and then check behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

you're not a man either, eh? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

At first I was gonna say I hate the turn check, but the more I think about it, maybe its OK. I'm guessing his three bet range out the sb is super small after you raise UTG, so if you are ahead he probably only has two outs. It all depends on what he thinks of you and wether or not he gonna pay you off with JJ or QQ.

I was thinking you save some bets whe behind with your line, but im not sure that realy true since I'm not sure you have to pay off a turn checkraise. So I guess with a half way loose image I'm betting the turn, but if he thinks I'm a tight ass I might check behind too. He cant get away from it on the river in that case I dont think. VS basically anyone else its obviously a bet.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

This might be newbish, but why no cap preflop?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This might be newbish, but why no cap preflop?

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against tommy's range of 3-betting hands from the blinds i'm a signficant dog.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Hi Chris,

I've never played against Tommy, but if his posts are typical of his style, then you're facing a very tight opponent who is also capable of making some rather big laydowns.

Now, when you face a tight player, you usually want to bluff more, and value bet less. However, Tommy is probably smart to recognize if you do something as obvious as going passive with your good hands, and attacking with bluffs. Right?

So, which do you prefer? You can play a little more passively with your strong hands, or you can play them aggressively and perhaps make a little less, while giving yourself the ability to steal some pots later.

So, since it's close enough, I'm going to bet the turn. Also suggesting a bet is the fact that, from what I understand, Tommy does not do a lot of check-raising.

my 2 cents.
eric

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh besides not playing against Tommy you could not have played that hand any better. Bet the turn and Tommy mucks a weaker hand. Check the turn and bet the river and you get him to pay off with his smaller pair. Perfect play. You don't gain anything by betting the turn. Either you are beat or Tommy has 2 outs.

Vince

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my thinking on the hand too. Tommy seems to be notoriously good at folding when beat. Why not give him his chance at 2 outs, if it means he'll pay off a river bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Tommy will really play this weak, and I doubt it, then you should be happy to throw him a bone every once in a while by betting when you actually do have a K and he has aces, in order to keep him mucking virtually every other hand you play. Surely you don't think he is so stupid as to not notice that you only bet the turn when you DON'T have it.

my 2 cents.
eric

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Somebody should mention the possibility of raising the flop ... too late.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
If Tommy will really play this weak, and I doubt it, then you should be happy to throw him a bone every once in a while by betting when you actually do have a K and he has aces, in order to keep him mucking virtually every other hand you play. Surely you don't think he is so stupid as to not notice that you only bet the turn when you DON'T have it.

my 2 cents.
eric

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It's not that I think Tommy's stupid/weak, it's just that if he is behind, he's WAY behind. It would be different here if Tommy had 5 outs, or more, but in this situation it's almost certain that either Tommy has 2 outs, or CDC is basically dead.

I don't know what kind of game CDC had been playing up to this point, but I can't imagine too large of a range that Tommy put him on at this point. CDC's likely capping preflop with any top pair. Not much is calling that flop except a way ahead/way behind hand, and I don't see CDC calling with Ts, or a draw there very often. Obviously Tommy didn't either as he seemed ok to let CDC have a free card to draw with if he wanted.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody should mention the possibility of raising the flop ... too late.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not crazy about raising the flop VS Tommy there. Way ahead or way behind, blah blah blah.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

The point is, if you believe Tommy is going to check fold QQ/JJ on the turn, then you believe that his game is extremely exploitable. CDC need merely make the flop call with anything he'll raise preflop, and then take the pot away by bluffing should Tommy check to him.

There are 2 possibilities.

1) Tommy will not fold QQ/JJ. In this case, CDC should bet.

2) Tommy will fold QQ/JJ. In this case, CDC can consider checking to perhaps gain some now. However, if he chooses this route, he gives up on the hope of picking up the pot here when he actually does not have a king, which should be often if Tommy is so weak as to fold here. Do you see what I'm getting at? He can't only bet when he doesn't have AK as his opponent is observant.


So, to sum up. Bet because Tommy is not so weak a player as to always check-fold when an overcard hits. If he is actually that weak, bet to keep him that way, because it's super profitable for you. Hope that he choose this time to look you up.

good luck.
eric

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody should mention the possibility of raising the flop ... too late.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi tony,

As with my other posts, I agree that raising is a perfectly viable play if you believe Tommy may fold. Huh? Well, you're getting about 4:1 to make this bluff, so if he folds everything but AA and KK, you'd love to make it when you don't have it. Since your opponent is observant, you must also raise then when you do.

Against an unobservant opponent who is also as tight as Tommy, or if you only played this hand in isolation, calling is clearly best.

-eric

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Man, when Tommy sees a 2+2er at the table he must be thrilled. He knows he is in their head for sure......

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've never played against Tommy, but if his posts are typical of his style, then you're facing a very tight opponent who is also capable of making some rather big laydowns.

Now, when you face a tight player, you usually want to bluff more, and value bet less. However, Tommy is probably smart to recognize if you do something as obvious as going passive with your good hands, and attacking with bluffs. Right?


[/ QUOTE ]

i've read all your posts in this thread.

no matter what i do there is 0 percent chance i will get tommy to fold AA here, and obviously not KK (or TT).

so if i'm "bluffing" it wil be with the best hand here. Folding QQ/JJ is not a "big laydown" here. he will be correct to do so obviously.

my main contention is that i'm not so sure tommy will pay two big bets with qq/jj for a showdown, but may for one at the end.

[ QUOTE ]
So, which do you prefer? You can play a little more passively with your strong hands, or you can play them aggressively and perhaps make a little less, while giving yourself the ability to steal some pots later.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things.

1) Tommy plays very few hands.

2) I play very few hands.

3) We will play very few hands together.

Given these factors, I doubt attempting to bluff Tommy more is a viable strategy. There just won't be enough special situations where I'd even get the chance to profitably.

[ QUOTE ]
Also suggesting a bet is the fact that, from what I understand, Tommy does not do a lot of check-raising.



[/ QUOTE ]

You would think this from what you read from him, but I've seen it with my own two eyes.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

....but he's good at game selection, so if I see a table with Tommy and a bunch of people I don't know real well, I'm going to assume that's a fine game, and bankroll willing jump into it.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Hi Chris,

You make a good argument for value betting less instead of bluffing more, and I think this is perfectly valid. I was simply suggesting that bluffing is pretty profitable when the opportunity is there, so if you want to maintain this opportunity, you have to bet and raise with your good hands too, even though that is probably not optimal, as you suggest.


It doesn't surprise me to hear that Tommy plays differently than he posts. I've suspected it for a while now, which is why I qualified most of my posts in this thread.


nice hand.
eric

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't surprise me to hear that Tommy plays differently than he posts. I've suspected it for a while now, which is why I qualified most of my posts in this thread.


[/ QUOTE ]

no, he does exactly what he posts, but he also doesn't post about everything he does.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

I'm just shocked to see how many people suggest checking this turn.

I'm equally shocked at how CDC bet this river.

Lawrence

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm equally shocked at how CDC bet this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have my reasonings. What are yours?

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

It must be pretty cool to have QQ vs AK on a king-high flop and to only lose 1.5BBs getting to showdown.

Re: 80/160 AK hand vs Tommy, missed some betst?
 

Sorry if I'm a douche, which I am... but...

So your reasoning is that you will only win one bet here, and you want to see a showdown rather than have him fold the river?

Is that specifically so you can gain information about Tommy?

Just trying to understand the reasoning precisely.