Quick pf question
 

Based on a discussion in IRC with TstoneMBD, we disagreed about the standard play (if there is one).

Three handed with a 1/2 blind structure. You are in the BB with JJ. Your image is fairly tight. LAG who plays very badly post-flop openraises on the button, 2+2er who is decent and will have a fairly wide range 3-bets in the SB. Your play?

Re: Quick pf question
 

Cap

Re: Quick pf question
 

I believe...


LAG:s open raising standards should be pretty wide (especieally if he knows you are tight players). SB probably knows they are wide and that you are tight, so his 3-betting standards should be pretty wide. You are definetly a favorite to have the best hand. I think cap.

You don't mind if BU folds, especially when he has Ax, Kx, Qx.

On the flop after showing all that preslop aggression you would like your opponents to fold Ax, Kx, Qx in the 12 SB pot that will likly be much bigger by the end of it.


If you just call preflop, well then you can ch/r flop and that isn't to bad, but now you have them drawing to at least 3 outs in a big pot. You like them to fold to your flop bet more.

Re: Quick pf question
 

for the record, the BB in the hand thinks that the BT lag will fold preflop here about 0% of the time.

Re: Quick pf question
 

I'm 4-betting hands a lot worse than JJ here.

Re: Quick pf question
 

the title of this thread scares me...

easy cap. now let this thread die before jason comes in and starts trying to convince us that its a fold.

Re: Quick pf question
 

Now this one isn't even debatable.

Re: Quick pf question
 

ok ill blow the cover here... this hand took place in a 10/20 6max game where i was BB and spam was the SB. i smoothcalled JJ out of the BB and would do this here regularly but often cap as well. could someone please explain to me why smoothcalling is so bad because i am very stubborn here that it is a good play.

reasons:

-i cannot get the lag to fold, he may even cap it himself.
-spam will not put me on a hand as strong as JJ with my smoothcall.
-spam will bet any flop and i can raise him to force out the lag protecting my hand. if i cap preflop then i cannot protect my hand.

extra reasons for smoothcalling even though id do it here anyway:

-ive been carddead and my image is extremely tight/weak.
-the lag is giving me alot of respect and by capping i think it will scare him out of playing weaker hands postflop, but again he will not fold preflop.
-spamuell is probably giving me alot of credit here as well as he has been folding his sb to me every time i am the bb about 4/5 times in a row.

Re: Quick pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you just call preflop, well then you can ch/r flop and that isn't to bad, but now you have them drawing to at least 3 outs in a big pot. You like them to fold to your flop bet more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow I temporarily imagined you were SB or something...





[ QUOTE ]
spam will not put me on a hand as strong as JJ with my smoothcall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you win anything by that? When you bet on the flop you want him to respect your hand and fold. It would be best if he thought you had AA in the pocket?



[ QUOTE ]
-spam will bet any flop and i can raise him to force out the lag protecting my hand. if i cap preflop then i cannot protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good reason to call preflop. But I'd say it's not enough. I'd say you rather want to get more money in preflop as a favorite and hope they fold on the flop anyway. I don't see unpaired Ax, Kx, Qx calling the flop anyway after you cap+bet. Hands that have paired suck though.

But you don't get all that much by not capping. You only face BU with two cold. When SB has a smaller pair he is in a simular situation as if you had capped preflop and bet flop.



[ QUOTE ]
-the lag is giving me alot of respect and by capping i think it will scare him out of playing weaker hands postflop, but again he will not fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Above you said you want to call preflop in order to be able to protect your hand post flop. If he has no outs to your JJ then you want him to be calling, but he won't call that no matter how you play the hand.




EDIT: Clarification of above. The only reason I can see for not capping is that you want to protect your hand on the flop the times BU makes a pair lower than jacks. I don't think that is enough though.

Re: Quick pf question
 

Easy cap.

Re: Quick pf question
 

Clearly you can cap if you want but calling is probably better:

1. Button may cap and then you get what you wanted without tipping your hand.

2. If Button just calls the initiative will remain with SB. Now you can decide about raising after you see the flop. Putting the extra bet in on the flop carries a much higher EV than preflop because you only do it when the flop is favorable. In essence this play saves a bet everytime the flop is some atrocity like AQ4 while giving you the same action as capping when the flop is good.

The bad LAG button is the key to making this work. I'm assuming that when he's confronted with two bets on the flop he'll pay first and think about his cards later. If Button caps you can checkraise the flop because he'll always bet. If Spammuel forgets to bet your flop after his 3-bet is called, you can still recover you bet by checkraising the Button. Another trick is to smoothcall Spammuel's flop bet when you hit your set and let the Button raise for you.

Of course if I'm not describing your actual button then my advice may not apply. But I hope that I've made my basic point. There is much more to this type of situation then computing your bet equity and capping anytime it looks positive.

PS: I should add that the jacks play an important role in this. This hand tends to be awesome or worthless depending on the flop. With a better pocket pair there will be fewer OMG flops and the option to get away from your hand cheaply is worth much less. Also if you like the flop it is unlikely that Spammuel will completely hate it. If you had KK and the flop came KQ7 there is a real chance he might walk away from a hand like 88 or A9s without betting. But if you like the flop he usually has a minimum of overcards or second pair and will probably bet.

Re: Quick pf question
 

JJ, even OOP seems like it's crushing a lot of hands here. I cap with vigor and spirit.

Re: Quick pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. Button may cap and then you get what you wanted without tipping your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Why) Does it matter that you are tipping away your hand?



[ QUOTE ]
2. If Button just calls the initiative will remain with SB. Now you can decide about raising after you see the flop. Putting the extra bet in on the flop carries a much higher EV than preflop because you only do it when the flop is favorable. In essence this play saves a bet everytime the flop is some atrocity like AQ4 while giving you the same action as capping when the flop is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly, but I think you are saying that on a flop like AQ4 you fold JJ? If that is not the case please tell me how you play it. I actually _like_ to have capped preflop when that flop comes. The times your opponents have K8 and 66 you will often take the 12 SB pot down with the flop bet.



Just looking to learn!
It's interesting how opinions differ so much.

Re: Quick pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm 4-betting hands a lot worse than JJ here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. You're in a nice spot here.

I guess a case could be made for calling and trying to extract more postflop but I don't like dicking around with JJ in this spot. I cap and get the money now.

Re: Quick pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
-i cannot get the lag to fold, he may even cap it himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're putting the button and Spam on the wrong range of hands. Adjust it to a 3-handed game and you want neither of them folding to your cap.

[ QUOTE ]

-ive been carddead and my image is extremely tight/weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to who? Spam or the guy who won't fold? Regardless, this is an argument for opening on the button much more.


[ QUOTE ]
-spam will not put me on a hand as strong as JJ with my smoothcall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your capping range should be wide enough to disguise your monsters like JJ here.

[ QUOTE ]
-spam will bet any flop and i can raise him to force out the lag protecting my hand. if i cap preflop then i cannot protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's going to bet most of his showdown bound hands anyway for exactly the same reasons.

[ QUOTE ]
-the lag is giving me alot of respect and by capping i think it will scare him out of playing weaker hands postflop, but again he will not fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you want him to fold preflop but give you excess action postflop? That seems backward to me.

[ QUOTE ]
-spamuell is probably giving me alot of credit here as well as he has been folding his sb to me every time i am the bb about 4/5 times in a row.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then the coldcall from the BB should scream a monster to him.

Re: Quick pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-spam will not put me on a hand as strong as JJ with my smoothcall.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your capping range should be wide enough to disguise your monsters like JJ here.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sorry to revive this thread again, although I find it interesting.

You are the third poster to have said (although you are only implying) that it is good to disguise your monster. I don't see any reason for that.

If you cap preflop the pot will become 12 SB. If someone outdraws you on the turn he will win _at least_ 15 SB. That means that you want hands as bad as 3 outers to fold.

You want your opponents to call with 0-outers (T-high, no-pair, no-draw). They however won't call a flop bet no matter how disguised your hand is.

On the other hand you _want_ your opponents to _fold_ 3+ outers (any gutshot, overcard, small pair). So you are only happy if your opponents put you on a monster range!



Why do you talk about disguising your hand?


If I'm wrong please tell me. If I'm right please comfirm.


Thanks!

Re: Quick pf question
 

Looks like 8-2 in favor of capping when I read this, but I still agree with TS and SW

Re: Quick pf question
 

I'm not quite sure what about this you don't understand, but remember...

"Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker:
Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents' cards, they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see all their cards, they lose. Conversely, every time opponents play their hands differently from the way they would have if they could see all your cards, you gain; and every time they play their hands the same way they would have played if they could see all your cards, you lose."

Capping more hands means your opponent will have to put you on a wider range of hands and will not be able to play as correctly against you.

Re: Quick pf question
 

This is an interesting question. I like capping, but only if you cap lots of hands.

The biggest problem I have with cool-calling is that you probably do this like 1% of the time. What hands do you cool-call here? I think that's going to set off more alarm bells then "Oh, he capped. PRobably a PP or AT+."

Surf

Re: Quick pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite sure what about this you don't understand, but remember...

"Sklansky's Fundamental Theorem of Poker:
Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see all your opponents' cards, they gain; and every time you play your hand the same way you would have played it if you could see all their cards, they lose. Conversely, every time opponents play their hands differently from the way they would have if they could see all your cards, you gain; and every time they play their hands the same way they would have played if they could see all your cards, you lose."

Capping more hands means your opponent will have to put you on a wider range of hands and will not be able to play as correctly against you.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, that is true. I didn't express myself well wnough. I'll give it a shot and we'll see where we end up.

You want your opponents to think (know) you have a monster. But you want him to think you have an even better monster.

When your opponents hold Ax, Kx, Qx postflop and the flop hasn't pair them, then you want them to believe you have AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, or anything that dominates them, so that they will _incorrectly fold_. You don't want them to know you have JJ or think that you have something worse, because if the do that, then they will probably _correctly call_.

When they hold Tx, 9x, 8x, 7x, 6x, 5x, 4x, 3x postflop and the flop hasn't paired them and hasn't given them any gutshot, then you want them to call. So you want them to not know you have a monster. But the thing is that a T-high no-draw hand will fold to a flop bet no matter if they think you have a monster or not.

This doesn't cover all aspects, but enough of them. So the conclution is that we gain only when they incorrectly put us on hands that are more scary to them than JJ is. We gain nothing when they put us on hands that are less scary than JJ is.

If you still don't agree, or if what I have written is too unclear then please tell me why you think it is good for us to hide the strenght of our hand. What are the pros? What are the positive effects to us from the FTOP in this situation?

thanks for discussing dave44! I enjoy it and appreciate it!


EDIT: I don't think anyone cares, but I'll write it anyway, like I often do. The longish posts I write get no (or one) responses most of the time [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]. It's understandable. I don't read most long posts either. They take time. But I feel there is no point in posting longish post for discussion. And it's kind of "sad" because when I write long posts that is generally where I want to discuss the most. But from now on I'll (almost) never post anything longer than 2 lines. I mean, there's no point. And when there are 2 lines in my replys, the last one of them will be of smirk nature [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]. I need poker friends [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

Re: Quick pf question
 

i would call the 2 cold here with alot of hands. my image at the table is very weaktight and spam has never played with me before. he knows im a twoplustwoer but that doesnt mean im hyperaggressive CAP OR FOLD type player. he hasnt seen that side of me and i thought capping would show alot of strength while calling would not. in this situation he had no idea i would have a hand like JJ. thats what i thought would happen.

Re: Quick pf question
 

[ QUOTE ]
i would call the 2 cold here with alot of hands. my image at the table is very weaktight and spam has never played with me before. he knows im a twoplustwoer but that doesnt mean im hyperaggressive CAP OR FOLD type player. he hasnt seen that side of me and i thought capping would show alot of strength while calling would not. in this situation he had no idea i would have a hand like JJ. thats what i thought would happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that's true then I like calling.

However I also think you should be capping lots of stuff here. And you shouldn't be calling much.

Surf