$109s - Q5o Hand
 

Villain looks semi-aggro, but hasn't had to show anything down yet. I haven't played many hands.

Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 5: papafatstaxs ( $2555 )
Seat 6: bigraise22 ( $2353 )
Seat 7: Me ( $1202 )
Seat 8: tonyvon ( $2720 )
Seat 9: Cidermill189 ( $1170 )
Blinds(75/150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Me [ Qh 5s ]
tonyvon folds.
Cidermill189 folds.
papafatstaxs calls [150].
bigraise22 calls [75].
Me checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6h, 9h, Td ]
bigraise22 checks.
Me checks.
papafatstaxs checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qc ]
bigraise22 checks.
Me checks.
papafatstaxs bets [150].
bigraise22 folds.
Me calls [150].
** Dealing River ** [ Th ]
Me checks.
papafatstaxs bets [600].
Me calls [600].

Where's the converter at these days anyway?

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

i'd play it the same exact way - so i hope it's right [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

edit: to elaborate a bit - IP, he's leading with either the FD or the T. his river lead is a little to big IMO for a "value bet" vs. what could be a drawing blind. a bigger Q sucks, but i'd expect a bigger representation on the turn. i think you're good more times than not.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

I hate checking that turn. A lot. You can let a lot of hands draw against your hand which is almost definitely the best hand right now and be very confused on the river. Just take it down now with a 2/3 pot bet.

I love checking that river. You're only really getting value out of snapping off bluffs, so value betting seems like a good way to give money to better hands and just get worse ones to fold. Check calling seems a good way to maximize the value of your hand.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

I do not play it that way. I almost never play a hand the way you do. Still, I think we are both doing ok.

You certainly have a different style and have given me as much to think about as almost any other poster.

What percentage of flops do you see?

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate checking that turn. A lot. You can let a lot of hands draw against your hand which is almost definitely the best hand right now and be very confused on the river. Just take it down now with a 2/3 pot bet.

I love checking that river. You're only really getting value out of snapping off bluffs, so value betting seems like a good way to give money to better hands and just get worse ones to fold. Check calling seems a good way to maximize the value of your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. OP has a very weak hand on the river. Behind to a flush, a ten, various straights, and a Q with a real kicker.

I guess I take a shot on the turn, but I'm done with the hand after that if I don't take it down.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

one version

I still have to do some editing when I use it.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate checking that turn. A lot. You can let a lot of hands draw against your hand which is almost definitely the best hand right now and be very confused on the river. Just take it down now with a 2/3 pot bet.

I love checking that river. You're only really getting value out of snapping off bluffs, so value betting seems like a good way to give money to better hands and just get worse ones to fold. Check calling seems a good way to maximize the value of your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get it. OP has a very weak hand on the river. Behind to a flush, a ten, various straights, and a Q with a real kicker.

I guess I take a shot on the turn, but I'm done with the hand after that if I don't take it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about how the villain would play some of the hands that beat us which you described above. Not a lot of them check the flop closing the betting. I'm not saying we're always ahead, and that we're 'trapping him', but I think check calling the river minimizes what we lose when behind and maximizes what we win when we're ahead.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

How often do you think you get called if you push this preflop?

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
How often do you think you get called if you push this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Too much. Button limps are suspect, but it depends on the player.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

I like snapping off bluffs here, at the same time I don't think you are beating many hands.

If any queen bets, you're beat. I don't think you're going to show profit too much given this spot.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

But would a Q minbet TP behind check-check from the blinds w/ a flush on board?

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

I'm thinkin raise the turn.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

Why didn't you push the turn. I just want those chips that are in the middle of the pot.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where's the converter at these days anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ask and ye shall receive

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

Alright here's what went through my head:

This guy's been betting pretty frequently so I'm fairly certain he's betting a FD on the flop last to act against two blinds who have shown zero interest in the pot. Also, he'd bet a ten there to protect his hand, and hed probably bet a nine. So I basically eliminate those hands on the flop. I catch my queen on the turn, but I'm awfully weak and its a nice scare card that any semi-aggro player will bet for me anyway so I check it through. This gives me a wider range of betting options and allows me to see how SB will react to his probable bet. Most of the time he'll be folding after checking two streets but any information is good information.

On the turn villain bets 150 into a 450 pot last to act indicating he has basically nothing. He *may* have a jack here and picked up an OESD on the turn, but this bet makes no sense there sither as he *should* just take a free card or bet something closer to pot. Now, he could be a shitty player with a J, and I take this into account when determining my course of action, but normally this is just going to be a complete bluff, and a weak one at that. He *could* have KJ, and that is pretty much the only legit hand I could put him on as his cheesy turn bet would be consistent. However, given he's aggro his range is waaaaaaaaay to big to worry about him having turned the straight.

Of course, a Q is possible, but I'm not too worried about that given the small bet on the co-ordinated board. Also, if he has the Q I definitely want to check/call this hand down, as any raise will pot stick me and I want to lose the minmium.

River pairs the T, which is a lovely card for me as the only way this guy has a ten is if he has quads after checking behind on the co-ordinated flop. Checking the river is obvious for reasons already mentioned and its a pretty easy call of his bet because:

- He bet 600 into 750 on the river. If he had the straight I'd expect to see something a bit closer to half pot. The reason for this is how I look through his eyes. He's seen the BB check the flop through and check/call a weak bet on the Q turn. Most BB's would either bet or C/R the turn with a Q given all the draws out there.

- The last part of that sentence is the reason you must call the river, and is basically the most important part of the hand. Villain sees me call a weak turn bet on an ugly board, and the river completes the flush and pairs the T. Now, looking at the river in isolation, Villain goes, ok, this guy has like a nine or something, and there's no way he can call a big bet on this ugly river. Plus, if he had any sort of hand capable of calling a big bet on the river, he'd raise the turn, so I'm going to take this pot from him.

Honestly, you don't need to do this much thinking. If you call the turn you MUST call the river because you've induced his bluff. It's really that simple. I'm posting all of this because I've noticed that I play a little too much on instinct, relaying on the fact that I've widened out villain's betting range sufficiently enough though my line that I am forced to make a call. I'm trying to deepen my thought process and actually put players' on hands instead of just relying on feel, although instinct will still play a large part in my game. If anyone wants to do the same I'd suggest verbalizing your thought process as the hand plays out. I'm actually mumbling to myself as I play - "what does that bet mean?", "what is he representing?", "what am I representing". It's been fun and quite helpful in insuring I pick out those situations that aren't cut and dried enough to rely on my experience and instinct alone.

Anyway, any comments on my thought process there? Oh and PS, if anyone was worried about a Q on the turn those fears should pretty much evaporate when he bets pottish on a river that could have easily made me trips. It's just not something you should worry about regardless of the river given my description of the villain and the turn action. Besides, most Q's would have been raised preflop by this guy anyway. <- that's what playing HU does to you BTW, you start to ignore any PF reads. Gotta watch that. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Other considerations:

- He's biggish stack so his range will be wider in bluff hands.
- If I fold this riv I have like 900 left 5-handed. If I call and win I take a commanding position in the SNG.

etc, etc

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinkin raise the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against anything but a J raising the turn allows villain to play perfectly and removes any bluff equity I have on the river. I'm not too worried about protecting my hand with anything else with one card to come as he's raising any ace or king preflop. Do you strongly put him on a J here lacky? (or two hearts?) I was thinking J either makes a real bet or just takes his free card. Thoughts?

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Most BB's would either bet or C/R the turn with a Q given all the draws out there.

- The last part of that sentence is the reason you must call the river, and is basically the most important part of the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also feel that that part of the sentence is why I raise that with air almost 100% of the time. Even a min raise with a large lead on a safe river isn't a horrible play because if he does in fact have a straight, he's gonna push right there and you can stop your bluff without losing your stack.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

your analysis makes me want to play SNGs again.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I catch my queen on the turn, but I'm awfully weak and its a nice scare card that any semi-aggro player will bet for me anyway so I check it through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, this sentence just looks like any old line, but is far more profound.

Why did our villain check the flop after being checked to?

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

he didn't catch any part of the board. preserving chips

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, any comments on my thought process there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thought process makes me realize that my game is still at the infant stage. Since I read and digested the "betting impetus" thread, I do play more hands in this manner. However, I sometimes chicken out and fold on the end to what is probably a bluff in many cases.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

In my experiences bigger bets on the river aren't usually bluffs. I've called plenty of big river bets in sequences just like this and most of the time ended up facing the flush/straight or something else that beats me.

Here's a reasonable thought process for him if he has a Q: "I caught a Q on the turn but the board is kind of scary so I'll just bet the minimum. Ok I got a caller but he didn't raise so my hand is probably best. The river was a dud since he likely doesn't have a ten, so I'll make a big bet to get the most out of my big hand."

Here's a reasonable thought process for him if he has a flush/straight: "I've got them beat so I want to entice them to donate more money. Thus I'll make a small bet. Ah ha! I got a caller. He probably has a queen so he'll call a bigger bet on the river. Here goes..."

I'm not suggesting that calling is wrong. It's just that I can easily see him as having a better hand than you and still doing this betting pattern.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

Your thought process fits the lower levels. At the 109s and up you HAVE to make this call. He had 22.

Re: $109s - Q5o Hand
 

I really like your river call. I also really don't like the turn check/call for the reasons already mentioned. Of course, if you knew he'd bet any scary river, the check/call is a lot better.