SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

In SSH it advocates raising with AJo. But in GTBOI, on page 86 its says AJ is "garbage" in a good loose game.

So this means one of these books is incorrect and faulty. Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Under what conditions did each book refer to: such as position, who bet or raised, etc?

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

GTBOI was first written over 20 years ago, and I'm guessin the games were quite different in many ways. Maybe more aggro, so if you call or raise with AJo you'd likely be having to put 3+ bets in, which isn't good with AJo. I don't have SSHe in front of me, but I think they had a specific example in there where if you raised with AJo, and it got reraised and capped back to you, you should fold, as opposed to 88 or 99, where you call. If this is more likely to happen in your game, then AJo is certaily "garbage" as Sklansky stated. I'm sure in most of today's lowlimit games though Mr. Sklansky would find a lot of places to profitably play AJo. Especially since he collaborated on SSHE, I believe he would agree with most of what Miller wrote, at least as it pertains to the typical 3/6 or 6/12 HE you'd find today.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
So this means one of these books is incorrect and faulty. Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'd kind of like to have you elaborate because I guess I'm too dim to see why. Perhaps you can direct me to the appropriate pages in YOUR book. I'm kind of surprised that someone with as many posts here as you have is capable of such a patently offensive statement.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So this means one of these books is incorrect and faulty. Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'd kind of like to have you elaborate because I guess I'm too dim to see why. Perhaps you can direct me to the appropriate pages in YOUR book. I'm kind of surprised that someone with as many posts here as you have is capable of such a patently offensive statement.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see how this is a "patently offensive statement." He's expressing his opinion that one of the books is incorrect. And use of the Socratic method shouldn't be offensive...

If you disagree with his opinion, why not state your reasons in a logical way, rather than just claiming that the statement is offensive?

EDIT: Just so you know, I haven't read GTBOI, but I have read SSHE, and I know that the original poster's statement oversimplifies/misrepresents Miller's recommendations...

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

While 2+2 certainly publishes the best poker books they do actually get things wrong on occasion. And it's been a long time between GTBOI and SSH, plenty of time for new insights into the game.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

There are a lot of hands that are raising hands in some situations/games and garbage hands in different situations/games. Also the game has changed a lot. If you read some S/S you'll see where a 3-bet/cap always meant AA/KK. Things have definitely changed. I'd be interested to see what the situation is for the "garbage" comment before commenting further.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

GTBOI is just flat wrong.

-Michael

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Actually I believe GTBOI is right on the money and SSH is wrong.

Just for clarification about the contexts; SSH advocates raising with AJo in any position in a loose game. Pages 82-83. There is no exact context in GTBOI, its just a single sentence on page 86. "Ace-jack becomes garbage in hold'em". Its an article about good loose games.

While, its true that there may be many hands worse than AJo among the limpers, in general though there are many hands that are getting implied odds from you. Any pocket pair, any decent suited connector etc. It just doesn't feel like a +EV play to raise with AJo on button with around 6-7 limpers. I might be folding that. Even if you spike and ace or jack, you've made the pot bigger and now you may it correct to chase with anything.

I don't think what I said was offensive at all! Not by a longshot. This is a real big discrepancy in my mind. I think an explanation is in order.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I believe GTBOI is right on the money and SSH is wrong.

Just for clarification about the contexts; SSH advocates raising with AJo in any position in a loose game. Pages 82-83.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've oversimplified the charts. SSHE advocates raising IF there has been no raise. Look more closely at the charts.

In fact, if you refer to page 73 for clarification, you'll see that the recommendation is to be prepared to fold AJ to ANY raise, because the hand is vulnerable to domination.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually I believe GTBOI is right on the money and SSH is wrong.

Just for clarification about the contexts; SSH advocates raising with AJo in any position in a loose game. Pages 82-83.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've oversimplified the charts. SSHE advocates raising IF there has been no raise. Look more closely at the charts.

In fact, if you refer to page 73 for clarification, you'll see that the recommendation is to be prepared to fold AJ to ANY raise, because the hand is vulnerable to domination.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say reraise, I just said raise. Of course you would fold it due to a raise.

What I'm questioning is their advice to raise with AJo when there hasn't been a raise in a loose game. I say this from both a standpoint of pot equity and from a standpoint of being able to protect you hand on the flop. If you do not raise and spike and ace or jack, you have a better chance of someone betting into you so you can raise the field.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually I believe GTBOI is right on the money and SSH is wrong.

Just for clarification about the contexts; SSH advocates raising with AJo in any position in a loose game. Pages 82-83.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've oversimplified the charts. SSHE advocates raising IF there has been no raise. Look more closely at the charts.

In fact, if you refer to page 73 for clarification, you'll see that the recommendation is to be prepared to fold AJ to ANY raise, because the hand is vulnerable to domination.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did take another look at the charts. It also says to do it with KQo in late position. Ugh

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm questioning is their advice to raise with AJo when there hasn't been a raise in a loose game. I say this from both a standpoint of pot equity and from a standpoint of being able to protect you hand on the flop. If you do not raise and spike and ace or jack, you have a better chance of someone betting into you so you can raise the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise AJ, and get reraised, you can fold and get away from the hand with minimal loss. If you raise and get called, you have extra bets in the pot if you do spike your ace so that it becomes more likely mathematically correct to continue playing the hand.

On the other hand, say you play AJ your way. Not only do you let inferior hands which may draw out on you see the flop cheaply, you've made yourself vulnerable to domination or reverse domination by another hand with an ace.

What are you going to do when you get reraised by the player that bet into you after the flop? AJ is a marginal hand, no question. SSHE is just showing how to play it to maximize the gains and minimize the losses.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]

I did take another look at the charts. It also says to do it with KQo in late position. Ugh

[/ QUOTE ]

There's been plenty of discussion on how SSHE recommends playing a lot of hands that other books don't. If you do a search, you'll find enlightenment.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I'm questioning is their advice to raise with AJo when there hasn't been a raise in a loose game. I say this from both a standpoint of pot equity and from a standpoint of being able to protect you hand on the flop. If you do not raise and spike and ace or jack, you have a better chance of someone betting into you so you can raise the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise AJ, and get reraised, you can fold and get away from the hand with minimal loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying to be rude, but I stopped reading your reply at this. I don't see how its ever correct to fold to a single reraise preflop. I'm sure SSH does not advocate this.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I did take another look at the charts. It also says to do it with KQo in late position. Ugh

[/ QUOTE ]

There's been plenty of discussion on how SSHE recommends playing a lot of hands that other books don't. If you do a search, you'll find enlightenment.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Bud, thanks for the debate. I keep an open mind, and I like novel ideas. But I also don't like to believe in things on faith along. I think raising AJo and KQo on the button with 6-8 limpers is wrong. My rationale is above.

But I would like to get some comments, about the seemingly blatant contradiction here. In GTBOI, AJo in a good loose game is "garbage". In SSH its a raising hand. Big difference to me.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Hi Pipes:

This debate has come up many times before.

Games that are loose but your opponents are still playing well from the flop on are different from games in which some of your opponents play virtually anything and then play poorly from the flop on.

This is from page 159and 160 of HPFAP where this is addressed:

[ QUOTE ]
There is a bit of a two-edged sword here. If you’re playing against extremely terrible opponents, it’s hard not to raise with pretty good hands because even though you’re costing yourself money on the later streets, your’re gaining so much before the flop because your hand is usually so much better than theirs. In other words, if people are coming in with absolutely everything, you have got to raise with an AQ simply because your hand is so much better on average than so many of the other players.

But if these players are just playing a little looser than what they normally should, and then they play meekly and badly, a reason not to raise with many of these hands is that when you make the pot larger, you are now making some of your opponents play correctly. This is in addition to the fact that some of these hands, such as the AQ just mentioned, don’t play well in multiway pots.


[/ QUOTE ]

This explains the differences between the two books.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I'm questioning is their advice to raise with AJo when there hasn't been a raise in a loose game. I say this from both a standpoint of pot equity and from a standpoint of being able to protect you hand on the flop. If you do not raise and spike and ace or jack, you have a better chance of someone betting into you so you can raise the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise AJ, and get reraised, you can fold and get away from the hand with minimal loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not trying to be rude, but I stopped reading your reply at this. I don't see how its ever correct to fold to a single reraise preflop. I'm sure SSH does not advocate this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no offense taken. I was unclear in how I described this... I didn't mean that you should fold for a single reraise prelop. I was talking about when you get reraised preflop, then you spike your ace and get bet into postflop, you raise, then you get reraised.

If you look at the third paragraph of my reply, you'll see what I intended to say.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Here's the offensive part: "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate."

It assumes a lack of intellect on the part of the reader (unless he happens to agree with the OP). You're not offended? Okay. How about if he wrote, "Gusly, your sister is unattractive. Do you see why?" It's all in the context, I suppose.

If he had simply said, "Can someone explain the seeming contradiction..." rather than just branding one or the other wrong perhaps he would have started a Socratic discussion.

Also, Socrates would have always raised AJo first-in in a loose game. Sorry to have pushed your buttons.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the offensive part: "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate."

[/ QUOTE ] Uh...I believe that line is an homage to Sklansky, who finishes many of his posts with that line, or one similar.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the offensive part: "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate."

It assumes a lack of intellect on the part of the reader (unless he happens to agree with the OP). You're not offended? Okay. How about if he wrote, "Gusly, your sister is unattractive. Do you see why?" It's all in the context, I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well... you didn't really push my buttons. But having said that, let me add that you hit the nail on the head by saying that it's all in the context.

There is a 2+2 author who posts on these forums that is fond of using "Do you see why?" as a means to kick off a discussion. Knowing this, do you see why (hope that doesn't offend [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) you may have jumped to the wrong conclusion?

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the offensive part: "Do you see why? I'll let others elaborate."

[/ QUOTE ] Uh...I believe that line is an homage to Sklansky, who finishes many of his posts with that line, or one similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aww, man... you gave him the answer. Now he doesn't have to do a search! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Hope, missed it entirely. Glad I didn't have to do the search. I see, the OP meant the whole thing as a tribute?

Now that I'm thinking about it, I do remember reading a number of DS posts that had that kind of line in it. I guess I'm not offended when DS does it because I give him credit for being on-target, so I'm willing to search through the evidence.

You're right. I jumped to a conclusion. No more late night posting for me. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Pipes:

This debate has come up many times before.

Games that are loose but your opponents are still playing well from the flop on are different from games in which some of your opponents play virtually anything and then play poorly from the flop on.

This is from page 159and 160 of HPFAP where this is addressed:

[ QUOTE ]
There is a bit of a two-edged sword here. If you’re playing against extremely terrible opponents, it’s hard not to raise with pretty good hands because even though you’re costing yourself money on the later streets, your’re gaining so much before the flop because your hand is usually so much better than theirs. In other words, if people are coming in with absolutely everything, you have got to raise with an AQ simply because your hand is so much better on average than so many of the other players.

But if these players are just playing a little looser than what they normally should, and then they play meekly and badly, a reason not to raise with many of these hands is that when you make the pot larger, you are now making some of your opponents play correctly. This is in addition to the fact that some of these hands, such as the AQ just mentioned, don’t play well in multiway pots.


[/ QUOTE ]

This explains the differences between the two books.

Best wishes,
Mason

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason, thanks for reply. Yes, I have seen the earlier debates. But the hand was AQo and it was a decision between raising and calling.

Here the hand is AJo, and SSH says to raise and in GTBOI it is garbage in a good. Presumably, I would assume that garbage should be folded.

I don't think AJo and KQo have that much more in preflop equity against loose limpers to make up for the fact that you are making them play more correctly postflop.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hope, missed it entirely. Glad I didn't have to do the search. I see, the OP meant the whole thing as a tribute?

Now that I'm thinking about it, I do remember reading a number of DS posts that had that kind of line in it. I guess I'm not offended when DS does it because I give him credit for being on-target, so I'm willing to search through the evidence.

You're right. I jumped to a conclusion. No more late night posting for me. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it was a 'tribute'. I should have done the Ray Zee`line too...something to the effect of.."If you don't know why that was the correct play then you don't understand the game"

But I actually don't take offense to it even when they slap one on me. Its like tough love. I come here to improve my knowledge, not to be coddled...

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think AJo and KQo have that much more in preflop equity against loose limpers to make up for the fact that you are making them play more correctly postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what the debate boils down to. Ed Miller argues that it does, and that is why he says that you must raise these hands. I happen to agree with him, but there is no proof for this, it is just a matter of what you observe through experience, and most peoples experience is that low limit players will limp with garbage hands all the time.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller argues that it does, and that is why he says that you must raise these hands. I happen to agree with him

[/ QUOTE ]


Me too. just limping on the button with AJo or KQo against a field of limpers is REALLY going to cost you money (in most games).

The more successful players on 2+2 would almost universally advocate raising in these situations.
The less successful and/or newer players are typically the one's who would be more likely to advocate limping.

This fact alone does not mean that raising with AJo here is DEFINITELY correct....but it's good enough for me to do it EVERY time.
and it's been working for me as well.

when you think it might be a close-call as to whether to be passive (call) or aggressive (raise) it is very likely that the aggro route is the better option.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Hi Bob:

It all comes down to "Have badly do they play?" If the answer is incredibly bad, and that's certainly the case in many games, then the immediate equity is there. By the way, because of the poker explosion, this is more true in today's games than ever before.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ed Miller argues that it does, and that is why he says that you must raise these hands. I happen to agree with him

[/ QUOTE ]


Me too. just limping on the button with AJo or KQo against a field of limpers is REALLY going to cost you money (in most games).

The more successful players on 2+2 would almost universally advocate raising in these situations.
The less successful and/or newer players are typically the one's who would be more likely to advocate limping.

This fact alone does not mean that raising with AJo here is DEFINITELY correct....but it's good enough for me to do it EVERY time.
and it's been working for me as well.

when you think it might be a close-call as to whether to be passive (call) or aggressive (raise) it is very likely that the aggro route is the better option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky in GTBOI advocates folding AJo in these types of games. (Assuming calling a hand "garbage' means you should fold it. Is he a less successful or newer player?

Also, I actually only play limit hold'em once in a blue moon. So I'm not a 'less successful' or newer player either if you are trying to indirectly paint me as so. I read all good poker books, whether or not I play the games. Something to learn from all.

Note, the last two posts have not addressed the discrepancy, which was the intent of the thread.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky in GTBOI advocates folding AJo in these types of games. (Assuming calling a hand "garbage' means you should fold it. Is he a less successful or newer player?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes...you have pointed this out already and this has been addressed already (several times)
In today's game where most players go too far with their hands it is advantageous to raise in these situations.

When Sklansky wrote that he was referrin to generally loose play pre-flop with semi-decent play post-flop.
As Mason pointed out (again)....the poker-explosion has resulted in more games where players take their hands too far (the game that SSHE addresses) and fewer games where players don't take their hands too far post-flop (the type of game that GTOBI is addressing).


I think this has already been stated quite a few times in this thread.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
It all comes down to "Have badly do they play?" If the answer is incredibly bad, and that's certainly the case in many games, then the immediate equity is there.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not sure how bad "incredibly" bad is...because raising AJo on the button against a field of limpers is what I ALWAYS do.
I've done this on tables where I had not spotted any super-fish...but just your regular assortment of semi-decent party 15/30'ers.

Obviously this is a better play if a couple of the limpers are not very good and are V-40, R-10 types.
But, I guess what you're saying is that if the field of limpers isn't truly terrible then you would recommend limping with AJo or KQo here??

I still think you generally get equity against a field of limpers unless you are really concerned with how tricky they are and/or suspect the UTG limper might be pulling the old limp-reraise with his AA/KK.....otherwise, I feel comfortable making a raise my default play here but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.

FWIW - In party 15/30, there's generally enough aggression that I would not expect to face a field of 5 limpers or more very often at all. Usually it would be just 2-3 limpers or perhaps 1-2 limpers and a raiser (in which case you have to determine if the raiser is legit and/or is trying an isolation raise).
I just don't get very many situations at all where it's 5-6 limpers to me on the button. So if my default play here is incorrect it's partly a moot point since it doesn't happen for me very often.



Also - your insight on my general rule that "if passive and aggressive are kinda close in your mind....just go with aggressive" would be appreciated. Am I just finding creative ways to be overly LAG??

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Note, the last two posts have not addressed the discrepancy, which was the intent of the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

My post won't address the "discrepancy" either... but consider these quotes from SSHE.

________

Page 96:

In small stakes hold'em, the real money is won and lost after the flop. "Playing better cards" than your opponents only goes so far; experts get most of their edge from their superior postflop play.

Page 190:

Many small stakes players who take their games seriously get too bogged down in the minutia of starting hand strategy and neglect their play from the flop on. We see arguments like this on our Internet forums at www.twoplustwo.com all the time. If only these people would realize that small differences before the flop matter very little in their overall results and then concentrate on play from the flop on, their results would begin to improve.

But play on the later streets can be quite complex. [...] Perhaps that's why so many players concentrate only on the first two cards. It is a lot easier [,and] this fixation still does allow them to win a little.

But as we have already stated, this book is not aimed at those who just want to win a little. The information that it contains [...] should enable you to do much better.
_______

Perhaps the energy you're expending trying to resolve the perceived discrepancy would be put to better use in development of kick-ass postflop skills?

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

Hi Bob:

What you need to understand with plays like this is that they are often theorectical positive EV. The question is would it be higher EV still not to raise before the flop and gain those playing advantages after the flop.

So yes I agree you will get equity before the flop with a field of limpers. But is there another strategy that might produce even more equity?

best wishes,
Mason

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

for my own aggressive playing style I do not see as much advantage in limping.

Since I raise so much PF anyway I don't think my raises get noticed quite so much, but the aggressiveness still frustrates my opponents.

Raising here is especially fun if I've been picking on a more lively player with the occasional isolation re-raise and have gotten to show-down hands that might look like strange hands to raise (or 3-bet) with to the rest of the table.

with this kind of table-image I feel I can try to manipulate the post-flop play with the help of my pre-flop raise better than I can with a pre-flop limp.

There will likely be a tendency to 'check to the raiser' and I can also give the appropriate weight to any player who 'bets before it gets to the raiser'.


If I whiff on the flop I'm hoping my PF raise allows me to see an extra card. If I hit on the flop I'm hoping I can either take it down quickly and/or manipulate my opponents into paying me off by making it look like it was just another one of my loose PF raises.


Those are my general thoughts anyway.
I'll think further about which situations might be better for limping.
Thanks for getting the thought process started.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
Me too. just limping on the button with AJo or KQo against a field of limpers is REALLY going to cost you money (in most games).

[/ QUOTE ]

Please expound upon why limping with either one is REALLY going to cost you money. I can see the advantages of both limping along as well as raising, but I do not see much harm done either way in a usual game. They are both mediocre hands, and either limping or raising with them against multiple opponents still makes them mediocre in that environment.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sklansky in GTBOI advocates folding AJo in these types of games. (Assuming calling a hand "garbage' means you should fold it. Is he a less successful or newer player?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes...you have pointed this out already and this has been addressed already (several times)
In today's game where most players go too far with their hands it is advantageous to raise in these situations.

When Sklansky wrote that he was referrin to generally loose play pre-flop with semi-decent play post-flop.
As Mason pointed out (again)....the poker-explosion has resulted in more games where players take their hands too far (the game that SSHE addresses) and fewer games where players don't take their hands too far post-flop (the type of game that GTOBI is addressing).


I think this has already been stated quite a few times in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I know that is the official 2+2 explanation for all of these contradictions...but Sklansky does not say anything about that in his essay. Just the fact that its a good game. Back then, I guess all the drunken idiots morphed into Howard Lederer post flop.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Note, the last two posts have not addressed the discrepancy, which was the intent of the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

My post won't address the "discrepancy" either... but consider these quotes from SSHE.

________

Page 96:

In small stakes hold'em, the real money is won and lost after the flop. "Playing better cards" than your opponents only goes so far; experts get most of their edge from their superior postflop play.

Page 190:

Many small stakes players who take their games seriously get too bogged down in the minutia of starting hand strategy and neglect their play from the flop on. We see arguments like this on our Internet forums at www.twoplustwo.com all the time. If only these people would realize that small differences before the flop matter very little in their overall results and then concentrate on play from the flop on, their results would begin to improve.

But play on the later streets can be quite complex. [...] Perhaps that's why so many players concentrate only on the first two cards. It is a lot easier [,and] this fixation still does allow them to win a little.

But as we have already stated, this book is not aimed at those who just want to win a little. The information that it contains [...] should enable you to do much better.
_______

Perhaps the energy you're expending trying to resolve the perceived discrepancy would be put to better use in development of kick-ass postflop skills?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is minutia. GTBOI says AJo is garbage, SSH says to raise. Big difference, and these decisions come up several times a night.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

I can't comment on how the games were 'back in the day' because I only started playing 2 years ago.

I do believe you have a valid point (and one that I believe has been brought up before regarding some of the advice in HEFAP compared with SSHE).

I think that it is possible that the opinions of how to play these hands in a loose-game have simply changed and developed.


I know that the games are looser now then they have ever been in the past, and that S&M have specifically stated that they wanted to teach their players how to play in the 'bigger' games because that's where you can actually make money...and that it wasn't nearly so profitable or worthwhile back then to learn how to play in the wild, loose low-limit type games of today.


But I agree that it seems odd that a 'loose' game (back then) with that many limpers should also somehow feature a ton of not-terrible post-flop players.
A loose game that features 6 players to the flop is not likely to feature a bunch of experts.


I believe the prevailing wisdom on how to play such a hand in such games has developed.

S&M will be the first to tell you....their low-limit experience is limited.

In short, I believe the advice given in SSHE is correct...and the wisdom given in the GTOBI essay (even though I haven't read it) is perhaps out-dated and was MAYBE even not so correct even at the time it was written.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can't comment on how the games were 'back in the day' because I only started playing 2 years ago.

I do believe you have a valid point (and one that I believe has been brought up before regarding some of the advice in HEFAP compared with SSHE).

I think that it is possible that the opinions of how to play these hands in a loose-game have simply changed and developed.


I know that the games are looser now then they have ever been in the past, and that S&M have specifically stated that they wanted to teach their players how to play in the 'bigger' games because that's where you can actually make money...and that it wasn't nearly so profitable or worthwhile back then to learn how to play in the wild, loose low-limit type games of today.


But I agree that it seems odd that a 'loose' game (back then) with that many limpers should also somehow feature a ton of not-terrible post-flop players.
A loose game that features 6 players to the flop is not likely to feature a bunch of experts.


I believe the prevailing wisdom on how to play such a hand in such games has developed.

S&M will be the first to tell you....their low-limit experience is limited.

In short, I believe the advice given in SSHE is correct...and the wisdom given in the GTOBI essay (even though I haven't read it) is perhaps out-dated and was MAYBE even not so correct even at the time it was written.

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Intuitively GTBOI seems more correct to me. Are there any numbers to look at? With AJo, you are hoping to make top pair. How often does 1 pair win in a pot with 6-8 people?

Do you have any stats for AJo in late position, with many limpers in a full game? Does pokertracker have that type of detail available? I hardly play limit hold'em ring games so I have no data to look at.

Re: SSH and Getting The Best of It Discrepancy
 

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I know I know that is the official 2+2 explanation for all of these contradictions...but Sklansky does not say anything about that in his essay. Just the fact that its a good game. Back then, I guess all the drunken idiots morphed into Howard Lederer post flop.

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He wasn't talking about 3/6, which is the kind of limit SSH talks about. But if we have to decide that one of the two is wrong then Sklansky is wrong. (Mostly for not anticipating the style of Hold'em played 20 years after he wrote his article.)

There are way fewer drunken idiots as you progress in limits. They might be ubiquitous at 3/6, but won't be in majority at 30/60.

I personally think that S&M's advice for loose games is their weakest part, but that it's been remedied by SSH.