$1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

I played a $1,000+50 1 table tourney today at the bike. 11 players, 3rd gets money back, 2nd gets 3200, 1st gets 6600.

I am heads up against a player who is very aggressive. He raises almost every pot preflop and will bet out if he has anything, even 3rd pair.

Ok, so the blinds are 100-200. I have 6200 and he has 4800. I'm in the small blind/button with K7 hearts and raised frankly because I knew he would raise if I didn't.

I made it 500 and he calls. Now, he is a loose caller but he wouldn't just call any 2. He would call with SOME kind of hand, though, Even, say, 45 suited. By the way, if he had an ace or a pair, he would've reraised. OK, so the pot is 1K I now have 5700 and he has 4300.

Flop comes 10,7,2 all spades. He checks to me. What is the right play?

Things to consider:
1. He is very aggressive, so the fact that he checked means he seriously doesn't have anything. If he had a pocket or ace high he wouldve reraised me preflop. If he hit any pair on the flop, 2 pair, or even a set, he would've bet out even though I was the preflop raiser. So I was pretty sure that I was ahead. The only thing he has that currently beats me is if he flopped a flush.

2. I can't give him a free card because pretty much whatever comes on the turn is a scare card. Unless it's a 3,4, or 5 non spade, he could've improved. And if I check, he is guaranteed to bet the turn whatever he has, and I'll have no idea where I stand.

3. Because he is very aggressive, he is capable of coming over the top of me if I make any bet, and so if I bet, say, the pot which is 1k, he could easily push on me and I won't be sure what to do. I'd probably fold.

4. I have 5700, he has 4300, pot is 1k. A push feels a little extreme. But if I bet 1500 or less, I know he'll push with any 2. What should I do???

Results to come later

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

"I have 5700, he has 4300, pot is 1k. A push feels a little extreme. But if I bet 1500 or less, I know he'll push with any 2. What should I do???"

So let me get this straight.

1) You know he has nothing.
2) You know if you check he'll bet out on the turn.
3) You know if you bet 1500 or less he'll push you all in.

Three options:
1) Dump the hand.
2) Bet 1500 or less, let him push, and since you put him on nothing, call.
3) Push, scare him off and take the pot.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

"2) Bet 1500 or less, let him push, and since you put him on nothing, call."

What I mean is that he currently has no pair, but he could easily have 2 overs and a spade, and therefore it's pretty much a coinflip before the river. kx, qx, or jx with 1 spade is a major possibility.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

Folding or not getting your money in on the flop both look pretty insane.

If the blinds will stay low for sometime I would just push so you can look for a better spot to get all the money in better then a coinflip against this guy since he is so bad. If the blinds are quickly rising you need to bet 1500 and call his push and gamble in a decent spot right now.

edit: with the chip lead.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

"What should I do when I know I'm favorite against my opponent's range and I know a way to get it all in?"

Do it.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

""What should I do when I know I'm favorite against my opponent's range and I know a way to get it all in?"

Do it."

But my point is that I don't necessarily want to go up against him since he might have 2 overs and flush draw and therefore be a slight favorite. So pushing to take it right there is better, yes??

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
""What should I do when I know I'm favorite against my opponent's range and I know a way to get it all in?"

Do it."

But my point is that I don't necessarily want to go up against him since he might have 2 overs and flush draw and therefore be a slight favorite. So pushing to take it right there is better, yes??

[/ QUOTE ]

No. This is VERY faulty logic. If his hand range is as wide as you say it is, and he really will get it all in with you with that entire range (This probably isn't actually true; I'm answering the question that you asked.) then you should do it. The fact that that range includes some hands against which this play is incorrect doesn't matter.

For example, suppose you have AK in the SB with blinds at 500/1000. Your opponent in the BB has 1k chips. Do you a) fold because your opponent could have AA, in which case calling would be wrong, or b) get it all in because you have your opponent's range crushed?

I hope this clarifies things.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

Ok, so you would push, yes????

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so you would push, yes????

[/ QUOTE ]

You said that if you bet 1500, he pushes 100% of the time. Therefore, I bet 1500.

The important thing to realize, though, is that you've asked a question in which you've made gigantic assumptions about your opponents play that make the correct play incredibly obvious.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

"You said that if you bet 1500, he pushes 100% of the time. Therefore, I bet 1500."

Noah, the point is I don't want him to push. I don't want to coinflip the tournament at this point. If I bet he pushes and I call, I'm now the dog if he has 2 overs and a spade.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
"You said that if you bet 1500, he pushes 100% of the time. Therefore, I bet 1500."

Noah, the point is I don't want him to push. I don't want to coinflip the tournament at this point. If I bet he pushes and I call, I'm now the dog if he has 2 overs and a spade.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, I give up.

It's only a coinflip if he has two overcards and a flush draw. I don't see why you're so hung up on this as his holding since you said yourself he could have a ton of other hands that you destroy. Getting hung up on the possibility that he could have two specific cards is just as ridiculous as the KK example I give. All that matters is the probability that he has certain hands. You gave those in your post, so assuming their right, your play is really really easy.

Is he even folding two overcards and a flush draw if you push anyway?

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

Not only does he need 2 overs and a flushdraw to be a favourite. He needs two live overs. How many of the hands he holds with two overs have a king, since you say he would reraise any ace preflop? You are basicly worried about QJ with one spade.

No matter what, I think your read on the villain is pretty impressive....

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

"Is he even folding two overcards and a flush draw if you push anyway? "

i would say 70% of the time, so there is some good FE here. But the point is that whatever I bet, he's gonna push, and I won't want to call him. it's not like I'm minbetting to get him to raise into me and I have a great hand. I have a very, very vulnerable hand

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Is he even folding two overcards and a flush draw if you push anyway? "

i would say 70% of the time, so there is some good FE here. But the point is that whatever I bet, he's gonna push, and I won't want to call him. it's not like I'm minbetting to get him to raise into me and I have a great hand. I have a very, very vulnerable hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Why aren't you going to call him given that you know you have him beat?

I was trying to refrain from saying this: you don't know how to play poker. You have absolutely no idea what the point of doing certain things with certain hands is if you're thinking that you should fold a hand that you know is favorite HU.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

And even if he has QJ with a spade (which you seem certain he has, impressive to put him on one hand after he called a preflop raise). When you have already put 2000 into the pot, and he pushes you are going to fold even being only a 47/53 dog?

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

You seem unwilling to accept that even though you have your opponent figured out, you can't assure yourself victory by playing the right way. This is poker, and the best you can do is maximise your Expected Value. Given your reads, this involves getting all your money in on this hand.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

I never, ever considered folding. LOL My point is that if he has 2 overs and a spade, he is the favorite. If I bet, I KNOW he'll raise me, and I really won't know if I'm ahead or behind.

"I was trying to refrain from saying this: you don't know how to play poker."

I play poker for a living and do very well, thank you.

By the way, I still haven't said what I did.

Just cuz I have him beat at the moment doesn't mean he's not a favorite to win the hand.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

By your info there is exactly one hand (QJ with a spade) he can have that has you beat, and even then you are only a 47/53 dog. All other hands he has that he will push no matter what(yikes), you either are a favourite againts or have crushed. This makes getting all the chips in not a bad idea. Do you see why?

Some fantastic reads on your part, but you seem unwilling to go with them.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

"And even if he has QJ with a spade (which you seem certain he has, impressive to put him on one hand after he called a preflop raise). When you have already put 2000 into the pot, and he pushes you are going to fold even being only a 47/53 dog?"

This is my point. Of course I'll call. Ok, I'll divulge. I think pushing on the flop is best. i want him to know right then and there that he's going to have to gamble his tourney life if he wants to win that hand. And I don't want to give him a chance to check raise.

And no, I don't have him on qj. When did I say this?

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

You said he could be a favourite with two overs and no aces. This range is QJ only.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

No, my pair is 7s, so overs also include 8s and 9s. So qj, q9, q8, j9, j8, and 98 are all 2 overs

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
...so if I bet, say, the pot which is 1k, he could easily push on me and I won't be sure what to do. I'd probably fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"...When you have already put 2000 into the pot, and he pushes you are going to fold even being only a 47/53 dog?"


This is my point. Of course I'll call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Get your story straight. Stop introducing new definitions of common terms like overcards. Take the advice of the forum or don't, nobody cares, and stop acting like you knew everything all along, because you clearly didn't.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am heads up against a player who is very aggressive. He raises almost every pot preflop and will bet out if he has anything, even 3rd pair

[/ QUOTE ]

So far seems like a standard for HU play. Aggressive play wins.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the small blind/button with K7 hearts and raised frankly because I knew he would raise if I didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is really the only reason you raised perhaps you need some help with your HU play. Any king is good to start with HU, and I'm even raising trash hands in this spot so that I get action on my big hands.

[ QUOTE ]
I made it 500 and he calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yuck, give him odds to call with almost any 2 here, eh? Raise more preflop, make him define his hand a little more - unless he's the type to completely disregard things like pot odds and make -EV calls.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, he is a loose caller but he wouldn't just call any 2. He would call with SOME kind of hand, though, Even, say, 45 suited. By the way, if he had an ace or a pair, he would've reraised. OK, so the pot is 1K I now have 5700 and he has 4300.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh but you gave him the right odds to call with lots of hands! That's the point here, he only needs about 40% equity here to make a call right. HU that includes lots of hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes 10,7,2 all spades. He checks to me. What is the right play?

Things to consider:
1. He is very aggressive, so the fact that he checked means he seriously doesn't have anything. If he had a pocket or ace high he wouldve reraised me preflop. If he hit any pair on the flop, 2 pair, or even a set, he would've bet out even though I was the preflop raiser. So I was pretty sure that I was ahead. The only thing he has that currently beats me is if he flopped a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Monsters under the bed, huh? Bet already and see where you're at. You make your own case for it. Grow the nuts and put the chips out.

[ QUOTE ]
2. I can't give him a free card because pretty much whatever comes on the turn is a scare card. Unless it's a 3,4, or 5 non spade, he could've improved. And if I check, he is guaranteed to bet the turn whatever he has, and I'll have no idea where I stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so you've made your own case in favor of betting. Remember that if villain isn't holding the hand you're playing scared of that he's thinking you could have that same hand. What's the problem here?

[ QUOTE ]
3. Because he is very aggressive, he is capable of coming over the top of me if I make any bet, and so if I bet, say, the pot which is 1k, he could easily push on me and I won't be sure what to do. I'd probably fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

He could come over the top of any bet in any hand. Are you going to sit there until you have the nuts before putting another chip in the pot?

[ QUOTE ]
4. I have 5700, he has 4300, pot is 1k. A push feels a little extreme. But if I bet 1500 or less, I know he'll push with any 2. What should I do???

Results to come later

[/ QUOTE ]

You already made your own case in favor or betting or pushing yourself. This isn't that tough of a decision, especially with a good read on your opponent like you had. If you really think you're ahead here then take the gamble and put out a bet. If he does push you're getting the right odds to call and it's not even close.

If you're not willing to play for villains whole stack you could always just check and give the pot to villain on his turn bet and give him the chiplead. That's what will happen if you don't bet and you know it.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is my point. Of course I'll call. Ok, I'll divulge. I think pushing on the flop is best. i want him to know right then and there that he's going to have to gamble his tourney life if he wants to win that hand. And I don't want to give him a chance to check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that you can translate this as "I'm virtually certain I'm ahead here (though rarely it's a coin-flip), so I want to push him off the worst hand rather than allow him to bluff off his whole stack by check-raising with the worst hand (most of the time)."

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

doing anything but the line which you are certain would lead to him pushing the flop with any hand is absurdity.

yes, he could have 2 overs and a spade, but that's just one of the million hands he could have. if you're saying he's playing 95% of all hands preflop, and htat he's pushing all of them over your weak raise, of course you run it out here.

"letting him know he has to gamble his whole tournament if he wants to play this pot" is similarly absurd. you're playing poker. making your opponent play correctly isn't the idea.

as another poster pointed out, get your story straight w.r.t. what you "of course" would have done to a flop push.

and finally, remember that "aggro players who bet everything that hits the flop down to 3rd pair" frequently have exactly one extra move in their arsenal, that being "check when i flop really really good, as the guy will of course assume i hit nothing." so checking here could mean nothing and could mean that he flopped a flush or something like that.

if you don't believe that he'll call preflop with a ton, you should say that.

if you don't believe he'll actually cr push on the flop over your bet with any 2 cards he saw the flop with, you should say that.

if you raise preflop here, you should also be telling us if you think there's an amount you can raise preflop that makes him fold more often.

your opponent seems to be a secondary ideal of hu opponent. the ideal being the one who just folds all the time. if he in fact checks whenever he has nothing, you should just win every hand that he doesn't hit.

if he has 2 overs and a flush draw, would he bet the flop?

c

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
doing anything but the line which you are certain would lead to him pushing the flop with any hand is absurdity.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was tearing my hair out reading the thread. this is obviously correct. somebody please pokerstove K7 against any 2 on that board (or maybe a top 70% hand that's not a pp / Ax / KJ+ based on the pre-flop read). K7 has to be a very solid favorite.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

I did. And took away every hand that had a card that made a pair with the board. He has 70%+ equity, but maybe he is good enough to pass up on such small edges.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I did. And took away every hand that had a card that made a pair with the board. He has 70%+ equity, but maybe he is good enough to pass up on such small edges.

[/ QUOTE ]

if villain pushes a2s face up, hero is obviously correct to fold AQ. no doubt.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
if villain pushes a2s face up, hero is obviously correct to fold AQ. no doubt.

[/ QUOTE ]
That should be pretty obvious. We all know that all in preflop is not real poker anyway.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

"By your info there is exactly one hand (QJ with a spade) he can have that has you beat, and even then you are only a 47/53 dog. All other hands he has that he will push no matter what(yikes), you either are a favourite againts or have crushed. This makes getting all the chips in not a bad idea. Do you see why?

Some fantastic reads on your part, but you seem unwilling to go with them."


There are a lot of hands other than qj with 1 spade has me beat. q9, q8, 96, and 86 with 1 spade also has me beat.
j9, or j8 with 1 spade has me beat beadly cuz he's got 17 outs. 98 with a spade has me crushed, he's got 20 outs.

kx, qx, or jx with 1 spade he has 11 or 12 outs. 45, 35, 34 with 1 spade, he has 12 outs.

Now do you see the predicament? If I make any bet and he raises, there's a very good chance that he is raising with a drawing but a favorite, and at worst, a slight dog if he has 11 or 12 outs. And do I want to risk my life on a hand that I don't even know if I'm a fave, and if I am, I'm no more than a ~62% fave? Oh, and of the hands that I have crushed, he won't call with many of them.

I mean, come on, people, I still have a lot of chips. And one of the main concepts of tourney poker is that it's ok to let go of a +EV situation if by doing so, you can make an even more +EV decision later on.

But if I bet a little or check, it's pretty much like folding because every card on the turn is a scare card and he'll bet no matter what.

Look, for what it's worth, I pushed, he thought for a long time and called with kj and the king was the spade. So he had 11 outs, got no help, and I won the tourney. $6,600, nice payday.

And I felt like I made the right move until I told 2 friends about it, and they told me that pushing was a horrible play. And these are two very well respected 2+2ers. So that's why I'm posting the hand.

So criticize my push play but don't pretend like there is a cut and dry decision here. It comes down to the fact that I just want to take the pot down right there, but only a push can do it, which is unfortunate because the stack sizes are still pretty big compared to the pot and the blinds. That's why it's a tough little situation.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
But if I bet 1500 or less, I know he'll push with any 2.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and of the hands that I have crushed, he won't call with many of them.

[/ QUOTE ]
You change your story all the time. Or do you mean he wont call the push with hands you have crushed. That is just all the more reason to bet 1500 or less, which is pretty much what every poster here has suggested. You want action from all of his hands, not only the ones who calls a push.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

Double Down - stop arguing - you're on your own here. Bet and call a push. Poker is meant to be simple, you're making it complicated.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

" Quote:
But if I bet 1500 or less, I know he'll push with any 2.


Quote:
Oh, and of the hands that I have crushed, he won't call with many of them."


"You change your story all the time."

Fair enough, thank you for calling me on my inconsistency. So I would say this: That if I bet 700 or less, he'll raise with any 2 cards bigger than a 7. And amongst all of those possible combinations are all sorts of hands that are either slight dogs or slight favorites to my hand, and the only ones I dominate pretty much are qj,q9,and q8 with no spades.

If I bet 1000-1500, he won't raise with those hands that I have crushed, but he will raise with any 2 overs with a spade or straight draw that make him slight dog-decent fave.

Everyone is criticizing my thinking but people still haven't said what they'd do here. Remember, I pushed, but I'm only posting this hand because 2 well respected 2+2ers told me that pushing was horrible.


So instead of telling me what's wrong with each option, I want to hear from you guys, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE??

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, come on, people, I still have a lot of chips. And one of the main concepts of tourney poker is that it's ok to let go of a +EV situation if by doing so, you can make an even more +EV decision later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you do the following:

1) replace "main concepts" with "most abused and misunderstood concepts"
2) remove yourself from the box enough to realize that you are abusing and misunderstanding the concept that you (while using a really, really arrogant tone) inform us all of

you will:

3) be better off in the long run

c

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

I apologize for my arrogant tone. I meant no disprespect.

citanul, what would be your play here?

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I apologize for my arrogant tone. I meant no disprespect.

citanul, what would be your play here?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) no worries. people just need to be careful of what they write as this is an internet message board and inflection/sarcasm/whatever are reduced to whatever it is we read on the screen

2) i would need to actually know what your read is to tell you what my play is. if he's going to call preflop with 95% of all hands, bet all hands that hit the flop in any way, and checkraise a small bet with air every time (air including hands with a spade in it) i would bet just about the most i think he would checkraise and call a push. throwing away a huge amount of dead chips because you "think you can find a better spot" than 70/30 later is absurd.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is criticizing my thinking but people still haven't said what they'd do here. Remember, I pushed, but I'm only posting this hand because 2 well respected 2+2ers told me that pushing was horrible.


So instead of telling me what's wrong with each option, I want to hear from you guys, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE??

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me try. First of all, I seldom have that good of a read, so if I made a 3/4 pot sized bet and he came over the top, I would probably have to lay it down with only middle pair. But I play weak tight. I'm working on it.

What I think everyone is trying to tell you is, by pushing you narrow his range to the legimate hands he has that are favorites over yours. By inducing him to bluff by betting less than 1500, now you are getting all the chips in with a good chance to be a favorite. Theory of poker, if someone bluffs too much you should induce him to bluff even more.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he had a pocket or ace high he wouldve reraised me preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

One quick note - seems like on your preflop read, villian might not be as aggressive as you thought. I'm still kinda new at this, but wouldn't most players rank KJ at or ahead-of A-low or 33 heads up? And yet he just called with it.

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

No offense, but you are insane doubledown. If all of the things you said about the opponent are 100% true, then you fold because you know what he does every hand and CAN get a better situation. BUT it is unlikely that all of this is always true, and I think you are exageratting your read. You also came here already having your mind made up about what was right and what was wrong, so there was really no point to posting because all you wanted was people who would agree with you. If you can really pick up a read this strong than you probably win every heads up you play. None the less, I think you exagerated a lot and don't really know your opponent that well.
-Alex

Re: $1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???
 

"2) i would need to actually know what your read is to tell you what my play is. if he's going to call preflop with 95% of all hands, bet all hands that hit the flop in any way, and checkraise a small bet with air every time (air including hands with a spade in it) i would bet just about the most i think he would checkraise and call a push. throwing away a huge amount of dead chips because you "think you can find a better "" spot" than 70/30 later is absurd. "


My read on him is as follows: preflop, he would call my bet with kx, qx, j6 or better, and any 2 with 2 or less gaps down to 34.

If he had any ace or a pair, he would've reraised me.

Flop is 10,7,2 all spades. If he had any made hand at all, he would've bet out. if he had a hand like 2 overs and a spade draw, he would go for a check raise.

Pot is 1k, blinds are 100-200 with 30 minute levels and 10 minutes left in this level. I have 5700, he has 4300.

If I check behind on the flop, he'll bet any turn (and pretty much every card is a scare card.) If I bet 700 or less, he will be correct to call with a lot of hands and he will probably reraise or push with any 2 cards bigger than my 7. If I bet 1000-1500, he'll reraise with 2 cards bigger than a 7 if he also has a spade or straight draw.

What is the best move??