20/40 KK Hand
 

Forgive me if the details are shady.

Decent live 20/40 game, I have a pretty tight image with a few thinkers sitting here and there, and a few that aren't even thinking about anything but their cards.

Player to my immediate right is a decent/good regular player and is the main villian in this hand. He is a very intelligent guy based on our conversations, plays pretty solid but has made some questionable preflop raises (discussed between us as "reads" he's had) and tends to be overly passive IMO postflop in that he sometimes allows hands to draw out cheaply. He didn't seem overly creative, but was certainly a thinking player.

I'm on the button in a with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4 limpers to me including the player to my right and I raise, blinds fold out limpers call.

Flop is rag diamonds, along the lines of 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet, folded around to player to my right and he checkraises, I auto 3-bet and he calls.

Turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and player bets into me.

What's your move?

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

call down

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

If he's not creative, this looks much more like a semi-bluff with a flush draw than anything else, especially since he only called your flop 3-bet. I would raise and call down if he 3-bets. Although, given your read, folding to a 3-bet is also a strong option, I think he would have to have flopped a flush to 3-bet you on the turn after his flop c/r.

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

Raise it.

Jeff

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

"the main villian in this hand. He is a very intelligent guy based on our conversations, plays pretty solid but has made some questionable preflop raises (discussed between us as "reads" he's had) and tends to be overly passive IMO postflop in that he sometimes allows hands to draw out cheaply. He didn't seem overly creative, but was certainly a thinking player."

This doesn't sound like the kind of guy who c/r's a monotone flop without a tone.

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

I think he has a flush and just called your three bet on the flop because:
a)he didn't want you to fold to a reraise if you didn't have a diamond
b) has a small flush, thought you had a high diamond and wanted to see if a fourth one would come on the turn before he put more money in the pot, when the diamond didn't come he bet again.

-Pete

Turn Play and River Card
 

PTMR (Player To My Right)

OK, well my line of thought thus far was as follows:
- PTMR would raise big pairs, AK/AQ/AJ preflop, limp with any pocket pair, suited connectors, Axs, and some random offsuit broadway cards preflop from his position given the number of limpers.
- PTMR *may* (but probably not) limp with some rag Axo with the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
- PTMR at the point of the turn can be 90% certain I have an overpair.

Also worth noting, on a previous hand I had KK with 3 way action on an AxxJ board (capped preflop, raised flop) and a LAG (who raised preflop and was caught in the middle of the capper and me) came alive on the turn and bet out, which puzzled me and I called him down (because he's been playing and raising trash for about 1.5 hours now, and I was willing to pay for the information. Although what makes the call worse is that the PF capper would have called him down, therefore giving me the easy fold), but spiked a K on the river (ugly) to suck out on his AJ (blah, yeah I hate my play there...I had an easy turn fold). So that may have influenced PTMR's turn bet to equally puzzle me into calling him down (or even raising him).

So come the turn, he does a stop and go and given the info above I call because I am pretty confident PTMR (given the info and applying it) will certainly 3-bet a better hand, but also may 3-bet a semi-bluff draw with something like turned top pair with a diamond knowing I have an overpair and will likely lay it down to him on a turn 3-bet. At this point, I want to see a showdown and am uncertain where I stand and feel raising isn't going to give me any information or have him laydown a better hand or any draw.

So I call, and the river comes a 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or the like, giving a final board of

3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

PTMR bets out without hesitation, I instantly think of Clarkmeister (Hi Clark! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])...what's your move?

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

Raise this turn every time.

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

And fold to a raise?

As I mentioned in my follow-up, I think this player is somewhat likely to 3-bet both with a better hand and a semi-bluff (hoping I lay down my overpair) and I am certain I want to show this hand down rather than get 3-bet on the turn and backed into a corner with a tough decision.

I felt raise, it almost seemed standard...but I felt that the other player also knows that I know its standard and was betting in hopes that I'd raise. Perhaps I was in too many levels of thinking here (which I feel this player is capable of)...but it didn't seem so cut-and-dry as raise the turn every time.

I know you are a smart cookie, so can you throw some of your logic my way so I can understand if this isn't just a cut-and-dry SOP play in your mind?

Thanks JT.

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

First, for the record, I haven't read your follow up yet.

I think this player is somewhat likely to 3-bet both with a better hand and a semi-bluff (hoping I lay down my overpair)

I think you are giving him too much credit. Often, players as you speak, will use such a Stop-n-Go line as they out think themselves. The usually have a A8s, or 99 (will he raise the 99 after limpers here?) and they put a player like yourself on a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]-over. They know you are capable of raising many hands on the button. They know you are capable of raising this flop w/big diamond, clean-up, knock out raises. So when no- [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], no-broadway comes on the turn. They think, bet, he's calling cause he's drawing. They pride themselves in a bet like this, they have thought themselves right into it.

That's what I've seen often enough and, when I was learning to think up levels, I would often be that player. I'm still learning, so maybe this another lesson for me but that's where I stand.

-Joe Tall

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think you are giving him too much credit.


[/ QUOTE ]

This could be, he is a known regular and my second time playing with him. My inclination is that he is a solid player mentally when fresh, but as I saw this weekend he is tiltable when he gets hands cracked, he does play a little loose preflop and passive postflop.

The more I think about it, the more I hate how I played this hand and I've been pining over it since Saturday night driving home.


[ QUOTE ]
Often, players as you speak, will use such a Stop-n-Go line as they out think themselves. The usually have a A8s, or 99 (will he raise the 99 after limpers here?) and they put a player like yourself on a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]-over.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is too passive to raise 99 here PF, figuring it has no value given the limpers and the "odds are against him" thinker mentality.

I think when I auto 3-bet the flop before his raise even got in front of him dismisses my mere overcards in his mind. That solidified (at least I believe it would have) I wasn't trying to bully him with overcards, simply because I haven't done that to him or any of the tighter players all day/night. When I've played that aggressively postflop I've often had a very strong hand.

[ QUOTE ]

They think, bet, he's calling cause he's drawing. They pride themselves in a bet like this, they have thought themselves right into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This very well could be, and I fear I let myself get outplayed on this hand by overthinking it myself.

Re: 20/40 KK Hand
 

If villian flopped a flush i think he just calls the flop to get more money on the turn and river. being that hero has a tight table image it's likely villian put hero on a pair either preflop or on the raise on the flop. KK is probably good...am i right??

Results, After Thoughts, and Player\'s Commentary
 

OK to rehash the hand...

I'm on the button in a with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , 4 limpers to me including the player to my right and I raise, blinds fold out limpers call.

Flop is rag diamonds, along the lines of 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet, folded around to player to my right and he checkraises, I auto 3-bet and he calls.

Turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , and player bets into me, I CALL.

River is the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and player bets into me again.

I have no diamond, and I think for about a minute, look back at my cards, look back at the player trying to get a read, finally say to him "if you are making a move, nice hand" and fold my KK face up to get a reaction.

No reaction was made, but he said as he folded (not shown) that he flopped the nut flush. I don't believe him and at that point felt I may have laid down the winner.

Folding face up getting 11:1 rather than calling 1BB for equivalent (and more) information, now seems like a really horrible play on my part.

In the heat of the moment, I had him on either a monster or mediocre hand, with the latter having the diamond draw. My plan was to call any non diamond river and raise the obvious case non-diamond King, but when the diamond hit I just didn't think my hand was best.

Being that he and I were sitting next to each other, playing for most of the day/night (he splits his sessions) and have had a friendly time, our conversation after the hand lead to his reasoning (deception in my mind) which was "I had to find out if I was against a set on the turn, that is why I bet". This further made me believe I may have laid down the winner.

LOL who knows he may read this, I wouldn't doubt he is on this board, so perhaps he'll reply sometime.

Nevertheless, I am still in the air about the river call vs fold, but I have this feeling I just got outplayed hard. But of course he could have had the flush (rivered it or otherwise), or caught a 2 outer on the river for a set of 9s. I'm still not happy with my play.

This was the main hand I had this weekend that left me confused. Usually I can recognize my good vs bad plays, where I miss bets or call when I know I'm beat. But this fold had me stumped, and I think that was the whole idea. I think he played it well, unless of course he did flop the nut flush.

Re: Results, After Thoughts, and Player\'s Commentary
 

I used to have a weird problem with monochrome flops. I used to give too much action without having one of the suit on the flop and turn. Many times I never should have made it past the flop. But when the fourth of the suit comes, I used to play too weakly. I would fold too much, and I would not get enough value out of my mediocre flushes. I've done better since I tried to correct this problem, so I'm calling this river.

Re: Results, After Thoughts, and Player\'s Commentary
 

Never muck face up. You are giving away way too much info because many people wouldn't EVER fold KK on the river there and will try to bluff u later bc u showed it. If you raise the turn here, the hand plays much easier and u charge him if you're ahead.

BTW, if you think it's equally likely he will 3-bet BS as it is crap (and this sounds like some justification after the fact - no offense), the turn raise sounds even better to me.

Jeff

Re: Results, After Thoughts, and Player\'s Commentary
 

Is he not capable of folding a mediumish diamond to a river raise? I can't tell you how many times I've had players similar to the one you described get all upset fold a hand like J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] face up to a river raise from me in this spot.

Re: Results, After Thoughts, and Player\'s Commentary
 

I happened to be sitting on villain's right and AviD and I already talked about this hand over PM.... but I will post my thoughts anyway:

He either had the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or he had the flush already. When he stop-and-goed the turn the first thing i thought was that he had a small flush and was charging *you* in case you had a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. But once he bets the river, I think it is unlikely he is trying to outplay you since for all he knows *you* had the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or a big diamond and would payoff. So when he bets the river I think it is safe to say he got there if he wasn't there already... I find it hard to believe that he did all of this with no flush *and* hoping a 4th diamond would get there *and* that you did not have a large diamond so that he could steal it. That is way too much thinking for one hand.

(Aside: The river was actually really funny live because AviD said "jeez" but both Villain, DcifrThs and I thought he said "raise". But then he just sat there and didn't put any chips out. I think the river might have paired the board, but i don't remember exactly, but it was funny seeing everyone's reaction.)

Anyway, I still think you should raise the turn as it is unlikely that he would 3-bet the turn with just the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. But I would sure feel dumb calling down if he did somehow 3-bet the turn. So am I saying raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet? I dunno. I have to think about that some more. I really wanted you to call the river on this one.... I should have offered to pay it off for you. Ha ha ha.

I guess I could have asked him about this one after you left the table but I totally forgot since I did not know you were a 2+2-er at the time and did not think I would ever hear about the hand again. My bad [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-tpir

Re: Results, After Thoughts, and Player\'s Commentary
 

I understand what you are saying but do not quite see how it applies to this hand as Hero has no diamonds to speak of.

Re: Results, After Thoughts, and Player\'s Commentary
 

[ QUOTE ]
So when he bets the river I think it is safe to say he got there if he wasn't there already

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo.

Any decent player would have to put you on an overpair and in turn would not bet that river in fear that you made a higher flush, if he flopped a small flush. So you have to give him credit for the nuts, but don't fold face up anymore... I don't see how that helps you in anyway.


-Pete