I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Clinton Plays Dictator

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

jesus...you're already primed and standing in line to drink the kool-aid, aren't you...

people like you make me laugh - did GWB and the talking points memo give you the proper way to wipe your ass too? I just figured since you just repeat everything they say verbatim, without any sense of logic whatsoever or understanding the logic why we SHOULDN'T be torturing people, and since you're incapable of making arguments with any teeth whatsoever except for your Nazi puppet argument, that they would have to hold your hand on this too - cause after all, spewing Republican Talking points and wiping your ass go hand in hand....hopefully not the same hand, but if so, no biggie - I didn't wanna shake it anyways.

Let me guess - start at the bottom and sweep right - LOL

I've given this post the respect it deserves - and probably more then it deserves - it should be locked as redundant as another thread below it is much more insightful and focused on REAL discussion of the issue of unauthorized search/seizure as done ILLEGALLY by monkey-boy.

RB

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

If Bush suggests universal health care, will Repubs go along with it since Clinton did it first?

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Clinton authorized spying without warrants on Americans, which was executed by Gorelick. I wonder what the liberals will say once they realize that presidents of both parties have been authorizing these actions for years.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

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Clinton Plays Dictator

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Thank goodness for cut and paste, since the wingnuts love this false point so much that it is popping up in multiple threads.

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From Drudge Report and links below to sources:


Bill Clinton Signed Executive Order that allowed Attorney General to do searches without court approval

Clinton, February 9, 1995: "The Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order"

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Let's see what the order actually says, shall we?

[ QUOTE ]
Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) of the Act, the
Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

[/ QUOTE ]

That certification is one that the search "is solely directed at premises, information, material, or property used exclusively by, or under the open and exclusive control of, a foreign power or powers".

In other words, these are FOREIGN searches, and routine compliance with FISA by Clinton, rather than the "we're-at-war-so-the-law-is-what-I-say-it-is" lawlessness of the Bush administration.

Indeed, the different attitudes of the administrations are readily apparent. Let's go to Gorelick's actual testimony and see what our right-wing friends have left out, shall we?

"Second, the Administration and the Attorney General support, in principle, legislation establishing judicial warrant procedures under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act for physical searches undertaken for intelligence purposes. However, whether specific
legislation on this subject is desirable for the practical benefits it might add to intelligence collection, or undesirable as too much of a restriction on the President's authority to collect intelligence necessary for the national security, depends on how the legislation is crafted."

...

"As I stated earlier, we believe that existing directives that regulate the basis for seeking foreign intelligence search authority and the procedures to be followed satisfy all Constitutional requirements. Nevertheless, I reiterate the Administration's willingness to support appropriate legislation that does not restrict the President's ability to collect foreign intelligence necessary for the national security. We need to strike a balance that sacrifices neither our security nor our civil liberties.

If we can achieve such a balance -- and I believe we can if we use the basic provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act -- we can accomplish a number of things. First, we will reaffirm our commitment to democratic control of intelligence functions. Second, by mirroring the FISA process including the involvement a neutral judicial official, we will remove any doubt from the minds of reasonable persons concerning the legality of these searches. And finally, we will also provide additional assurances to the patriotic individuals who serve this country in intelligence positions that their activities are proper and necessary."

Soooooo, let's recap. The Clinton administration supported bringing physical searches under the FISA umbrella, and when Congress did so the Clinton administration complied with the law. The Bush administration acknowledges that the law prohibits what it is doing but claims that it has the authority to unilaterally nullify any law that it dosen't like, secretly, because we are at "war". [howie mandel]Equivilant, or not equivalent?[/howie mandel]

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Who said anything about hitler? WTF are you talking about?

Clinton never turned the United States spying aparatus against his own citizenry. Neither did Clinton.

Clinton never turned the spying aparatus against his own citizenry. What King George is doing is UNPRECEDENTED and ILLEGAL. Try to get that through your Hitler-loving brain.

Drudge has no credibility. He provides a cheat sheet of lies and misrepresentations for the right wing radio hosts.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clinton never turned the United States spying aparatus against his own citizenry.

[/ QUOTE ]


Niether has Bush. He is going against terrorists. Maybe you overlooked that bit. Maybe you overlooked that there is a War agaonst Terror going on. You are so engrossed in the politics of attacking Bush, you overlook these things.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

I seem to remember something about Clinton getting FBI files on his political opponents. That is the Law enforcement apparatus, though, not intelligence gathering. Maybe my little unnuanced mind can't see the differences.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

The war on terror is not an excuse to trash the constitution.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to remember something about Clinton getting FBI files on his political opponents. That is the Law enforcement apparatus, though, not intelligence gathering. Maybe my little unnuanced mind can't see the differences.

[/ QUOTE ]

One big difference is that Clinton was going after his political opponents, while Bush is going after terrorists that want to kill Americans.

What a HUGE difference in motivation.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Worst defence ever. If Clinton did something wrong, how does that make what Bush made any worse or better. It is irrelevant. You sound like Saddam when he points out the torture made by Americans to justify his own torture. It doesn't make the crime smaller.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

I absolutely love this retort. Let me see how it goes:

First, somebody else posted it before me. OK

Second, I can't read. Since I obviously can't read I obvously can't understand what the words on the pretty computer screen say. I hope Elliot will tell what they mean and he comes through.

Let's see - what Clinton authorized was wiretapping on US soil without a court order, but not really. It doesn't count because of the way the words are arranged in the executive order. OK. I follow that so far. And oh, don't forget Clinton supported having legislation enacted which would give him the power to conduct domestic survellance without the court, too. So all that makes it even more OK.

It gets even better. There are quoted paragraphs where the Clinton Administration states it's oh-so-good intentions to use the power vested in it and keep happy-happy feelings between all branches of Government while it uses that power.

I suddenly remember Orwell for some reason. "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
"Four legs good, two legs bad."

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Look, we are are war here folks, the only thing stopping the terraists from killing half of us and converting the other half to Islam is GWB.

If it weren't for our Dear Leader, there would be a mushroom cloud over every american city. If it werent for King George, Saddam would be working out of the Oval Office.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

"If it werent for King George, Saddam would be working out of the Oval Office. "

I don't think liberals would see this as a problem provided they got to keep their jobs in the government buereacracy, education system, and legal aparatus. All that matters is that Bush fails. Converting to Islam wouldn't be a problem either, because any religion is meaningless when you have no core beliefs.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Electing a Clinton to the White House isn't a reason, either.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely love this retort.

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You're welcome.

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Let me see how it goes:

First, somebody else posted it before me. OK

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Indeed.

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Second, I can't read.

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Who said that? I don't know whether you can read or not. I know only that you are wrong. Whether that is because you can't read or because you are a partisan hack or for some other reason, who can say?

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Since I obviously can't read I obvously can't understand what the words on the pretty computer screen say. I hope Elliot will tell what they mean and he comes through.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome.

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Let's see - what Clinton authorized was wiretapping on US soil without a court order, but not really.

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Actually, not at all. What Clinton authorized in the executive order that BluffTHIS linked to and that Drudge relied upon was physical searches -- not wiretapping, on foreign soil or "foreign controlled" soil which I suspect meant things like embassies -- not "in the U.S.".

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It doesn't count because of the way the words are arranged in the executive order. OK. I follow that so far.

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Amazingly, words have meanings and are used to communicate. Is this a new concept?

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And oh, don't forget Clinton supported having legislation enacted which would give him the power to conduct domestic survellance without the court, too. So all that makes it even more OK.

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Um, no. Actually, Clinton supported having legislation enacted which brought physical national security searches within the FISA framework. That means, for doemstic searches, with court involvement and with oversight.

[ QUOTE ]

It gets even better. There are quoted paragraphs where the Clinton Administration states it's oh-so-good intentions to use the power vested in it and keep happy-happy feelings between all branches of Government while it uses that power.

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[ QUOTE ]
I suddenly remember Orwell for some reason. "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
"Four legs good, two legs bad."

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I.

"At this moment, for example, in 1984 (if it was 1984), Oceania was at war with Eurasia and in alliance with Eastasia. In no public or private utterance was it ever admitted that the three powers had at any time been grouped along different lines. Actually, as Winston well knew, it was only four years since Oceania had been at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia. But that was merely a piece of furtive knowledge which he happened to possess because his memory was not satisfactorily under control. Officially the change of partners had never happened. Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia. The enemy of the moment always represented absolute evil, and it followed that any past or future agreement with him was impossible.

The frightening thing, he reflected for the ten thousandth time as he forced his shoulders painfully backward (with hands on hips, they were gyrating their bodies from the waist, an exercise that was supposed to be good for the back muscles) -- the frightening thing was that it might all be true. If the Party could thrust its hand into the past and say of this or that event, it never happened -- that, surely, was more terrifying than mere torture and death?

The Party said that Oceania had never been in alliance with Eurasia. He, Winston Smith, knew that Oceania had been in alliance with Eurasia as short a time as four years ago. But where did that knowledge exist? Only in his own consciousness, which in any case must soon be annihilated. And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed -if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. 'Reality control', they called it: in Newspeak, 'doublethink'."

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Reality is whatever King George says it is. People who are scared of terraists accept it without critical thought. It is up to folks like me and Elliot to keep people from falling for King George's Orwellian traps.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

This is the text of the executive order:

[ QUOTE ]
Office of the Press Secretary

__________________________________________________ ______________________
For Immediate Release February 9, 1995


EXECUTIVE ORDER 12949

- - - - - - -
FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE PHYSICAL SEARCHES


By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution
and the laws of the United States, including sections 302 and 303 of the
Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 ("Act") (50 U.S.C. 1801,
et seq.), as amended by Public Law 103- 359, and in order to provide for
the authorization of physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes
as set forth in the Act, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) of the Act, the
Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a
court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of
up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications
required by that section.

Sec. 2. Pursuant to section 302(b) of the Act, the Attorney
General is authorized to approve applications to the Foreign
Intelligence Surveillance Court under section 303 of the Act to obtain
orders for physical searches for the purpose of collecting foreign
intelligence information.

Sec. 3. Pursuant to section 303(a)(7) of the Act, the following
officials, each of whom is employed in the area of national security or
defense, is designated to make the certifications required by section
303(a)(7) of the Act in support of applications to conduct physical
searches:

(a) Secretary of State;

(b) Secretary of Defense;

(c) Director of Central Intelligence;

(d) Director of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation;

(e) Deputy Secretary of State;

(f) Deputy Secretary of Defense; and

(g) Deputy Director of Central Intelligence.

None of the above officials, nor anyone officially acting in that
capacity, may exercise the authority to make the above certifications,
unless that official has been appointed by the President, by and with
the advice and consent of the Senate.


WILLIAM J. CLINTON


THE WHITE HOUSE,
February 9, 1995.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the definition of a physical search:

[ QUOTE ]
in law, written order by an official of a court authorizing an officer to search in a specified place for specified objects and to seize them if found. The objects sought may be stolen goods or physical evidences of the commission of crime (e.g., narcotics). The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which protects against unreasonable searches and seizures, provides, in effect, that a search warrant may be issued only on oath or affirmation that a crime was probably committed. In Mapp v. Ohio (1961) the U.S. Supreme Court mandated states to exclude from trial evidence obtained in illegal searches, such as those without a proper warrant. This “exclusionary rule” has been the subject of great controversy and subsequent litigation. In recent years, the Supreme Court has narrowed the scope of the rule, in many circumstances permitting the introduction of any evidence gathered in “good faith.” Courts have ruled that a wiretap and the use of a thermal-imaging device to examine a private home from a public street constitutes a search that requires a warrant. Warrants are not required for the gathering of evidence in some circumstances. These exceptions include evidence gathered after a lawful arrest, inspections by customs or border officials, searches made with the suspect's consent, searches of items in plain view, and searches of the belongings of secondary students on school property.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obtained under the definition of SEARCH WARRENT
here. Courts have ruled that a wiretap and the use of a thermal-imaging device to examine a private home from a public street constitutes a search that requires a warrant
Emphasis mine taken from the above definition.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others"

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

It is up to people like you to and Elliot to lure people into the Orwellian trap of saying George W. Bush is setting Orwellian traps.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clinton Plays Dictator

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can link to Drudge then I can certainly link to Dailykos ...

Kos debunks RW talking point

[ QUOTE ]
CLINTON DID NOT ORDER WARRANTLESS SEARCHES OF AMERICAN CITIZENS
Here's what Clinton signed:


Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that Clinton allowed warrantless searches if and only if the AG followed section 302(a)(1). What does section 1822(a) require?


the "physical search is solely directed at premises, information, material, or property used exclusively by, or under the open and exclusive control of, a foreign power or powers." Translation: You can't search American citizens.

and there is "no substantial likelihood that the physical search will involve the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person." Translation: You can't search American citizens.


Moreover, Clinton's warrant waiver consistent with FISA refers only to physical searches. "Physical searches," as defined by 1821(5), exclude electronic surveillance.

CARTER DID NOT AUTHORIZE WARRANTLESS SEARCHES OF AMERICAN CITIZENS
And now, Carter's turn:


1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.

Here, Carter refers to "electronic surveillance," rather than "physical searches" like Clinton. But again, Carter limits the warrantless surveillance to the requirements of Section 1802(a). That section requires:


the electronic surveillance is solely directed at communications exclusively between or among foreign powers. Translation: You can't spy on American citizens.

there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party. Translation: You can't spy on American citizens.


Section 1803(a)(2) requires that the Attorney General report to Congress (specifically, the House and Senate Intelligence Committees) about whether any American citizens were involved, what minimization procedures were undertaken to avoid it and protect their identities, and whether his actions comply with the law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

OK Roybert,
I said in a post to Elliot below:
"Courts have ruled that a wiretap and the use of a thermal-imaging device to examine a private home from a public street constitutes a search that requires a warrant."

If you believe physical searches should not include wiretapping and survellance, you should get together some legal funding and take the issue up with the supreme court.

It just sucks that legally speaking, physical searches and wiretapping are equivalent.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

You have got to be kidding. You're relying on the fact that the foruth amendment applies to both pysical searches and wiretapping to say that they are the same thing? Um, no.

But even if they could be considered the same thing generally, or for some purposes, they absolutely cannot for purposes of FISA (and therefore for purposes of the executive order, which invokes FISA). FISA has seperate sections for wiretapping and physical searches.

Nice try, though. Just keep saying it: We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia . . .

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Oh, I got it. The constitution means nothing when you are dealing with the Clinton Secret Court.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

I dont see how King George violating the constitution (which he swore to uphold) has anything to do with Bill Clinton, who did not spy on American citizens.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

President Bush did not violate the constitution if your Furhrer didn't. Elliot already said the constitution is irrelevent when you are dealing with FISA. You can't have it both ways.

BTW: A really good web page about FISA can be found here

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Elliot already said the constitution is irrelevent when you are dealing with FISA.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF are you talking about?

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
President Bush did not violate the constitution if your Furhrer didn't. Elliot already said the constitution is irrelevent when you are dealing with FISA. You can't have it both ways.

BTW: A really good web page about FISA can be found here

[/ QUOTE ]

Continued references to President Clinton as "Hitler" and "the Fuhrer" are disrespectful and offensive.

Continued references to President Bush as "Hitler" and "the Fuhrer" are disrespectful and offensive.

Please stop.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

"You have got to be kidding. You're relying on the fact that the foruth amendment applies to both pysical searches and wiretapping to say that they are the same thing? Um, no.

But even if they could be considered the same thing generally, or for some purposes, they absolutely cannot for purposes of FISA"

Elliot says - can't rely on FACT 4th Amendment applies to searches AND wiretapping. Wiretapping and Searches cannot be the same when talking about FISA because they are addressed in two separate sections of the code. Therefore 4th Amendment doesn't apply to FISA therefore constitution is meaningless with regard to FISA. Or am I having trouble with that reading thing again? Can you please tell me what the words really mean? Say it slowly, like I am a child.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK Roybert,
I said in a post to Elliot below:
"Courts have ruled that a wiretap and the use of a thermal-imaging device to examine a private home from a public street constitutes a search that requires a warrant."

If you believe physical searches should not include wiretapping and survellance, you should get together some legal funding and take the issue up with the supreme court.

It just sucks that legally speaking, physical searches and wiretapping are equivalent.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree that physical searches and wiretapping without warrents on American citizens are essentially the same perverse bastardization of the Constitution. I was mostly interested in the provision that said that these physical searches couldn't be performed on Americans.
[ QUOTE ]
"physical search is solely directed at premises, information, material, or property used exclusively by, or under the open and exclusive control of, a foreign power or powers." Translation: You can't search American citizens.
and there is "no substantial likelihood that the physical search will involve the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person." Translation: You can't search American citizens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Can I still call GWB King George?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
President Bush did not violate the constitution if your Furhrer didn't. Elliot already said the constitution is irrelevent when you are dealing with FISA. You can't have it both ways.

BTW: A really good web page about FISA can be found here

[/ QUOTE ]

Continued references to President Clinton as "Hitler" and "the Fuhrer" are disrespectful and offensive.

Continued references to President Bush as "Hitler" and "the Fuhrer" are disrespectful and offensive.

Please stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

Sorry Roybert,
I'm having trouble following. The text you quoted; I didn't see any text like that in the Clinton executive order. Did that come from the FISA code?

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Courts have ruled that a wiretap and the use of a thermal-imaging device to examine a private home from a public street constitutes a search that requires a warrant

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course that doesn't apply if we are at war. If we are at war the President can do anything he wants to. Congress doesn't have to declare war in order for us to be at war, regardless of what the Constitution says. After all, it's just a piece of paper. We're at war because the President said we are conducting a "War on terror". Besides, I don't think we ever officially ended the "War on Drugs" or the "War on Poverty". Not only that, Jimmy Carter said the energy crisis was the "moral equivalent of war". We have a worse energy crisis now than we did when good ole Jimmy was president, so that counts to. What it all means is that the President can do anything he wants to, any time he wants to. Anybody who disagrees is a terrorist-loving liberal defeatist who hates America.

Hmm, I wonder how many survivors there will be after George passes out the koolaid.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Clinton authorized spying without warrants on Americans, which was executed by Gorelick. I wonder what the liberals will say once they realize that presidents of both parties have been authorizing these actions for years.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Beer, here. Neither party is (nor historically has been) immune to scumbaggery and pissing on the constitution.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clinton authorized spying without warrants on Americans, which was executed by Gorelick. I wonder what the liberals will say once they realize that presidents of both parties have been authorizing these actions for years.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Beer, here. Neither party is (nor historically has been) immune to scumbaggery and pissing on the constitution.

[/ QUOTE ]

So its ok?

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
I seem to remember something about Clinton getting FBI files on his political opponents. That is the Law enforcement apparatus, though, not intelligence gathering. Maybe my little unnuanced mind can't see the differences.

[/ QUOTE ]

clinton was rumored to have used his executive privilege to gain access to fbi files for political gain, but in reality they were routine background checks on all white house personnel and visitors. the right-wing press story that clinton got those on his opponents was an exercise in muddying the waters. it's pretty well documented. in fact, it was not the president who got blamed for it. it was the first lady who was claimed to be getting it through the president in preparation for her senate run.

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can you please tell me what the words really mean? Say it slowly, like I am a child.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. You say Clinton's order applied to wiretapping.
2. Clinton's order, on its face, applies only to "physical searches".
3. Clinton's order invokes a statute that specifically distinguishes between "physical searches" and "wiretapping".
4. Therefore, Clinton's order did not apply to wiretapping.
5. The proper thing to do when you have made a mistake is to acknowledge it, corrected it to the extent possible, learn from it, then move on.

mmm'kay?

Re: I always knew Clinton wished he was Hitler!
 

I have nothing to worry about. Unthinking Bush lapdog followers are not going to be the ones taken from their homes in middle of the night, forced to pray to Allah to save them while they are tortured with Eminem rap music in air conditioned rooms while being photographed as part of a naked human pyramid with glow sticks up their butts, given the death sentence and executed in the most humane way possible after a quarter century of failed appeals.

Anything get left out? Oh yeah, I forgot to mention racism.

This Bush bashing stuff is getting a weeee bit ridiculous, don't you think? Let the hilarity continue......