On people who play poker for a living
 

I'll cross post this cause it's kind of cross-topic.

As poker players, we don't earn our money. A lot of kids don't get to go extra vacations or they get cheap birthday presents because their fathers or mothers gamble away healthy sums of money. We can justify it to ourselves by saying that people choose to put their money on the table, that they can walk away any time, that they would have just lost it at blackjack etc. etc., there's no denying that if every poker player on earth were to die instantly, nothing would really be worse off. Maybe some slight entertainment value, and a few casino employees would be out of business. Truthfully though, casino employees aren't the most specialized in their skills (say, relative to aeronautical engineers) and thus are capable of finding other work in a variety of fields.

We suck money out of the economy and don't really provide anything in return. We take take and take and nobody really benefits from our existence. We are the sewers of the economy.

For some reason, I think of those who derive their sole income from the poker industry. Anyone who fits into this category feel free to respond.

Do you have a job in which you provide some benefit to someone in exchange for your income (engineer, lawyer, busboy, anything, manufacture fake dog [censored], anything)

Do you volunteer in the community?

Is money and comfort the only thing you care about? Does every decision you make first require EV calculations?

What do you do to make someone else's experience this planet better off?

For some reason, I think about a lot of the people on this forum really can't answer this, but I also think there's a good chance I'll be proven wrong.

I direct this mainly at the "name-brand" players; it's also been posted in OOT.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

This post sucks. Prepare to get flamed.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

Do you think being a good guy, making the lives of your friends/family more enjoyable, paying taxes, and other mundane aspects of life qualify as contributing to society?

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

why?

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think being a good guy, making the lives of your friends/family more enjoyable, paying taxes, and other mundane aspects of life qualify as contributing to society?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see how you think these things don't, and i also dont see how you could think poker does.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think being a good guy, making the lives of your friends/family more enjoyable, paying taxes, and other mundane aspects of life qualify as contributing to society?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see how you think these things don't, and i also dont see how you could think poker does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if the poker player goes out and does these things, has he not just proved your argument wrong? And many people who lost at poker (such as myself at times0 justify it as spending money for entertainment. To do anything entertaining requires paying a fee, poker players provided the opportunity to play poker.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

Well, as long as you're enjoying your life in... where are you located? Ah yes, the lovely burg of "Bangin' Bitches."

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

What does anyone in the entertainment industry contribute to society, usually not much unless their piece of work makes us more socially consicious about an important issue (few and far between). Poker players are similar to entertainers in that some people enjoy putting thousands of dollars in poker tournaments even though they know that chances are overwhelming that they dont see the money again. Mostly they enjoy the thrill that comes with playing poker, like others enjoy video games or movies. So in that respect, poker players are just as much a drain on society as movie actors and directors, authors, video games designers, or some Vegas stage act, none of them are providing anything to society except entertainment. Plus poker players pay taxes just like everyone else.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you think being a good guy, making the lives of your friends/family more enjoyable, paying taxes, and other mundane aspects of life qualify as contributing to society?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see how you think these things don't, and i also dont see how you could think poker does.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if the poker player goes out and does these things, has he not just proved your argument wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

[ QUOTE ]
And many people who lost at poker (such as myself at times0 justify it as spending money for entertainment. To do anything entertaining requires paying a fee, poker players provided the opportunity to play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with this, although i still think the majority of "entertainment" losers lose far more than they want to or realize.

at the same time, its your entertainment dollar = it's your choice.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

bangin bitches = rocks and rings.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

What charitable organizations are you donating a portion of your "rocks and rings" to? Possibly the volunteer fire department in the city of "Bangin' Bitches?"

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

now you're just being a troll

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

Not even close.

Unless you are donating time and/or money to charities, then you're simply being a hypocrite.

And don't pull the "they make more money than I do" crap. I know a LOT of people who make next to nothing but who volunteer at a soup kitchen once a week.

You want people to make a difference? Start with yourself, friend.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

They reduce traffic congestion because they are either working at home, or traveling the roads at non-peak times. Otherwise, some would have jobs that require peak travel time commutes. If there were more professional poker players, it would free up the extra half hour a day I waste because of traffic congestion.

Don't contribute anything...what BS.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

Crosspost

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
We suck money out of the economy and don't really provide anything in return. We take and take and nobody really benefits from our existence. We are the sewers of the economy.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not going to comment on this quote; it is just an example of how this post is seriously flawed. You need to explain why and how to make your argument convincing.

It isn't written anywhere that says that to make money in this country you need to be doing something productive for society. Plastic surgeons make a ton off of people's negative image of themselves.

And for the record I have seen Phil Ivey and a few other big names in commercials for programs that help people with gambling problems/addictions.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

When you posted this, I was sort of curious as to what mix of hostility, denial and rationalization you'd receive.

I have not been disappointed.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

your opinions are pretty terrible. or at least this one. it seems very self-indulgent, holier-than-thou, and unnecessarily paternalistic. if it helps you sleep at night by giving a dollar a day to someone else, by all means, go for it. don't project your insecurities onto the rest of us.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

how on earth do you have 4500 posts on a gambling forum??

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

dont get me wrong im very interested in gambling and math and statistics and poker.

the question is how to reconcile this interest with my values. to that end, i posted here hoping that other people have gone through the same issues.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

I've gone through the same issues and come up with no satisfactory answer.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

This is a retarded post. There are very few professions that do society good. lawyers and accounatnts are corrupt doctors wont admit you to the emergency room without insurance. WIth teh exception of teachers social workers, not for profit lawers and doctors we are all here on this earth to make money and take care of our family first. So to say poker players are any worse or better than most people is stupid. People are genearly all crooks, the only difference is poker players openly admit it. Not that im defending them im just sayting they are no worse than most....

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think of those who derive their sole income from the poker industry. Anyone who fits into this category feel free to respond.

Do you have a job in which you provide some benefit to someone in exchange for your income (engineer, lawyer, busboy, anything, manufacture fake dog [censored], anything)

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you asking the people whose incomes are derived soley from poker?

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

as opposed to brain surgeons who like to play poker as a hobby.

sole income => people who make their living, have all their comforts, drive their cars, all paid for by people who could have gone on vacation with their families or bought their kids a new toy or something or taken their wife out to dinner once in a while.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

Id like to take your mom to dinner once in a while.... Serious someone shut his mic off...

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

Am I the only one who sees validity to what the OP is saying?

Economic models are based on the assumption that all participants in the economy are rational. Countless psychological studies prove that losing gamblers are not rational. Essentially, we're getting money without providing a service to anyone.

I'm trying to think of a profession that provides less to society than poker, and I can't.

Of course, that doesn't mean poker players are bad people in other aspects of their lives -- and anyone who took the OPs post to mean that needs to grow some skin.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

Why do you need to reconcile anything with anything??? As a poker player you are no different than Tiger Woods or Charles Barkley....You play poker for yourself, not for anybody else...You play for personal satisfaction and to make $$...If you must have a bone, then realize that as a poker player you are creating jobs in economically depressed areas like Northwest Indiana or Atlantic City...

In reality, most people who make big $$ would do the world a favor if they simply comitted suicide. Its getting hard these days to truly "contribute" to society as you might aspire and not end up broke. I can tell you that every executive in my company is sucking up resources with their unneeded jobs...You decide, do you want to be a true "contributor" or do you wanna be wealthy? It is possible to do both, as B. Greenstein has proven, but your primary job is unlikely to achieve both endpoints for you.

Indiana

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one who sees validity to what the OP is saying?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're not.

I've tried broaching the subject before, only to get shouted down just as he is.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
Economic models are based on the assumption that all participants in the economy are rational.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like a pretty strict model. You mean to tell us that there is no slack built into these models for irrationality?

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, we're getting money without providing a service to anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Essentially" I agree, but taken in the context of people with a desire to play, it is providing a service. Similar to someone else's argument from this thread that a fashion designer does not contribute to society. That would be MY society because I don't care about fashion. But I do care about poker. It comes down to personal preferences.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to think of a profession that provides less to society than poker, and I can't

[/ QUOTE ]

Trimspa spokesperson.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
Trimspa spokesperson.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I think you've got him there.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

I can only speak for myself as a resident of Scandinavia.

I bring huge benefits to my country as an importer of green american poker dollars to spend in Ikea, drive a big Volvo and buy 10.000 pounds of Lego for my kids, maybe even invest some of it in a Swedish meatball factory or a Danish pastry bakery and create 1000s of jobs [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

I actually think there is a lot of truth to the post. In the service industries, you receive compensation for your service; in engineering, production, it's self evident what you contribute. You could argue that you provide entertainment to the others at the table by taking their money.

In Aces and Kings, Chip Reese talks about how he felt unfulfilled with his life for this precise reason (after having played high limit games for awhile); when he talked to his father about possibly going to law school (where he was headed before being sidetracked in Vegas), his father advised him to stick with his job b/c he enjoys it and not many ppl have jobs they enjoy working at.

Anyhow, here are two theories friends have come up with on the subject (both in a highly sarcastic and joking fashion)
1. You're contributing to society by taking money away from degenerate gamblers and thus lessening the money they have to spend on booze and drugs
2. You are improving the quality of mankind by taking money away from the dumber people, thus giving them less money to woo the opposite sex, leading to less of them procreating, leading to the overall improvement in the intelligence of the human race.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
sole income => people who make their living, have all their comforts, drive their cars, all paid for by people who could have gone on vacation with their families or bought their kids a new toy or something or taken their wife out to dinner once in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Vacations? What does Disneyland contribute to society? A few days of sunburn when that money could be spent helping to support the family of a starving poker player? There's no denying that if all theme park workers died instantly, nothing would really be worse off.

Toys? What does Mattel contribute to society? A few hours of entertainment for a snot-nosed kid when mommy and daddy could use that money to directly contribute to the college fund of a young poker player. (Not to mention the choking hazard of many toys.) There's no denying that if all toy makers died instantly, nothing would really be worse off.

Dinner? What do restaurateurs contribute to society? A few minutes of gluttony which leech from the rest of society. For half the price you can eat at home every night and 'donate' the rest to the "New '05 BMW" fund of a local poker player. There's no denying that if all restaurateurs died instantly, nothing would really be worse off.

Who are you to say that spending money on the enjoyment factor of a vacation, or the enjoyment factor of a toy, or the enjoyment factor of a dinner is worthwhile, but the enjoyment factor of playing poker is not?

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]

Trimspa spokesperson.

[/ QUOTE ]

touche

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
I can only speak for myself as a resident of Scandinavia.

I bring huge benefits to my country as an importer of green american poker dollars to spend in Ikea, drive a big Volvo and buy 10.000 pounds of Lego for my kids, maybe even invest some of it in a Swedish meatball factory or a Danish pastry bakery and create 1000s of jobs [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

hilarious [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

Try Pay-check lenders, that took about 3 seconds of thought

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

Assuming a poker player pays taxes.... isn't poker good for the economy? Please explain how the economy is hurt in the least bit by poker?

Suppose a 100 changes hands from you to me, opposed to you spending this money on goods.

If money changes hands from you to me, I pay 30% of that to the government, who in return spends that money for goods or services (that people get paid to either provide or produce) Then I proceed to spend the rest of the 70% on other goods or services. So all of it gets spent on goods and services.

I fail to see any way in which poker playing hurts the economy. If anything, it just adds an extra layer of taxation (taxed when I win, and when I spend), which just helps our country and economy even more. Since most losers can't claim gambling losses, but pay taxes on gambling winnings, the government loves it when people play poker. It's a no lose situation for them. They collect revenue that doesn't waste any resources.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming a poker player pays taxes.... isn't poker good for the economy? Please explain how the economy is hurt in the least bit by poker?

Suppose a 100 changes hands from you to me, opposed to you spending this money on goods.

If money changes hands from you to me, I pay 30% of that to the government, who in return spends that money for goods or services (that people get paid to either provide or produce) Then I proceed to spend the rest of the 70% on other goods or services. So all of it gets spent on goods and services.

I fail to see any way in which poker playing hurts the economy. If anything, it just adds an extra layer of taxation (taxed when I win, and when I spend), which just helps our country and economy even more. Since most losers can't claim gambling losses, but pay taxes on gambling winnings, the government loves it when people play poker. It's a no lose situation for them. They collect revenue that doesn't waste any resources.

[/ QUOTE ]

If money changes hands without a good or service being provided, that money gets taxed (removed from the marketplace) while skipping a step in the multiplier. If you don't know what the multiplier is, I'm not going to debate economics with you.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

I agree with the initial poster. I also think that anyone in the food industry is contributing to the major problem of obesity in the U.S.. (note:sarcasm)

Just because a small percentage of people have a problem with poker/gambling, that doesn't make it wrong. To the overwhelming majority, it is a form of ENTERTAINMENT; in my opinion, a necessary human experience.

Re: On people who play poker for a living
 

[ QUOTE ]

Just because a small percentage of people have a problem with poker/gambling, that doesn't make it wrong. To the overwhelming majority, it is a form of ENTERTAINMENT; in my opinion, a necessary human experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP directed his question to professionals. Sure a lot of 2/4 and 3/6 players play for entertainment, but how many 30/60 players intentionally cough up a few grand for a night of fun?