Two Plus Two Older Archives

Two Plus Two Older Archives (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/index.php)
-   Mid-, High-Stakes Pot- and No-Limit Hold'em (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   Bad Turn.... (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=254972)

KaneKungFu123 05-18-2005 11:30 PM

Bad Turn....
 
5-10 6 handed party

A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in SB

utg limps, co calls, Button Raises $40, I call, BB folds, utg calls, co calls.

FLOP: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I lead for $50, CO calls ($400 left)

TURN: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, He bets $100

Garland 05-18-2005 11:43 PM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
I assume you have the table covered (or at least CO)? You don't mention the stack sizes.

Preflop: Eh, marginal call depending on stack sizes.

Flop: $50 into a $170 pot with a flush draw out there? I'd bet $120-$170 into the pot unless you have a read that a weak lead will induce a big raise.

Turn: Obviously the only way you're going to win the pot outright is if you make CO fold. I don't think you're going to make CO fold a likely stronger A here due to the preflop raise especially since a check-raise push is giving him a good price $670:$300. A push looks -EV here especially given that it's possible CO got a cheap peel with a 9 or could possibly have a house. I like a check-fold here.

I'd like to know the thought process of making a weak lead with top and bottom pair...

Garland

happyjaypee 05-19-2005 12:02 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
I think it's a marginal call preflop, especially out of position.

Bet more on the flop, beween 125$ and 150$ should do.

Really bad turn... In position that would be of less concern but 1st to speek after you lead the flop is not good at all. There's a great chance you just lost the lead so a bet is dangerous. But if he is on the draw, a check gives him either a free card of a strong spot to push you out...

Tough spot. I would cut my loses and check fold.


-Happy [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

AZK 05-19-2005 12:08 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
check-raise button on teh flop, I assume he is going to lead a lot of the time when he raises preflop. Probably be able to shut everyone out or get all of CO's money in on the flop.
Were you trying to entice button to raise you on the flop? too obvious if so I think.

flawless_victory 05-19-2005 12:45 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
clear fold. there is no way you can win this pot.

RoboRob 05-19-2005 12:53 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
Crappy turn, unless you have a great read or something I'd fold.

KaneKungFu123 05-19-2005 01:27 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
[ QUOTE ]
check-raise button on teh flop, I assume he is going to lead a lot of the time when he raises preflop. Probably be able to shut everyone out or get all of CO's money in on the flop.
Were you trying to entice button to raise you on the flop? too obvious if so I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

i figure that if Button has AK, AQ hes gonna raise me on the flop; if he has a big pair hes not going to bet into 3 other players with an Ace on the board. if he riased with a hand like 99, who cares, he could easily have 88.

so i want to bet out, and hopefully, he raises with AK cause thats where the money is at, if i bet out 125, and the thrid suited card comes it'd have been just as hard to play then if i bet $50. id rather keep it small on the flop if i get action, and reevaluate the turn; the last thing i want is for this to get checked around.

AZK 05-19-2005 02:33 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
button raised preflop, why would he not bet the flop? At worst it gets checked around and you bet the turn (non-relevant card) and get action cause no one gives you credit for what you have. Your bet just seems like its lacking. Like you said, you are only getting action if button has AK. So might as well bet 150 or pot or whatever it is and expect button to call. hell, then you can check the turn to him like you were trying to steal.

KaneKungFu123 05-19-2005 04:20 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
good points...

button will only bet with AK, improved hand, etc.

i dont want it checked around and 66 hits a set.

as for betting more, good points. but i still like my bet because i think betting bigger could let AT, AJ, Ax get away easily.

[ QUOTE ]
button raised preflop, why would he not bet the flop? At worst it gets checked around and you bet the turn (non-relevant card) and get action cause no one gives you credit for what you have. Your bet just seems like its lacking. Like you said, you are only getting action if button has AK. So might as well bet 150 or pot or whatever it is and expect button to call. hell, then you can check the turn to him like you were trying to steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

thabadguy 05-19-2005 05:06 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
I think you oughta bet more on flop, pot size,maybe 3/4 pot sized, a CR is also good because if he has AK or something,he is obviously betting. I dont like the weak bet on the flop at all.Turn, check fold, possibly worst card you could see.

ggbman 05-19-2005 08:03 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
I don't see why we would continue with this hand without a stellar read on the button.

Yeti 05-19-2005 08:16 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
Lead a bit more on the flop.

I wouldn't say there's any guarantee you're behind, but if Villain is good its gonna cost you two streets to find out.

ML4L 05-19-2005 10:00 AM

re: Flop Play
 
Hey KKF,

Contrary to what most other posters have said, I think that your flop play is actually very good. It's something that probably wouldn't have occurred to me in the heat of battle, but your thought process makes perfect sense.

Just to explain a little about why it's so good:

1) It lets you protect your hand from something like 66. As KKF pointed out, if you have a strong hand, this is even more important than normal.

2) It is a bet that will cause your opponents to make mistakes. It looks like a weak ace making a feeler bet or a draw looking for a cheap card (this is the absolute key to the bet; if OTHER people didn't play hands in this manner, KKF wouldn't be able to make this play). Thus, a strong ace will certainly call and maybe raise. Hell, you may induce a bluff from KQ thinking that he can take the pot off of you since you are clearly weak. Check-raising or leading out big minimizes the number of mistakes the opponents can make.

3) It exercises pot control to an extent. With a counterfeitable (that's definitely not a word?) hand out of position on a draw-laden board, I'm not necessarily looking to build a pot.

Yeah, a spade draw isn't making a real mistake by calling this bet, but I think that the benefits far outweigh this detail.

As to the turn play, not much for posters to say. Without a read, I think that it's close between calling and folding. But, I don't play Party 6-max, so I might be misestimating the times that he's making a move here.

In any event, I like the flop play and the resourcefulness that it shows. Hope the turn worked out.

ML4L

savman 05-19-2005 06:38 PM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
I agree with ML4L, you are not necessarily behind here. If CO had Ace *paint* then he would likely raise your weak bet on the flop. Therefore, CO could be on a draw here.....you check like the 9 was a bad card for you and he bets ~half pot. I might make this play with spades looking to take it down, and CO doesnt seem to be terribly strong here.

Why not check raise? If he has a bigger ace it will be a hard call for him here, aces you chop with are almost always folding, and if he is on a flush draw then you werent getting any more money from him unless he improved anyway. If he calls you have a decision. I push any non spade river assuming he has enough stack to give some fold equity.

barongreenback 05-20-2005 04:33 AM

Re: Bad Turn....
 
What other hands do you bet this amount on the flop with? Is it a regular play for you?


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:21 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.