What\'s your move here and why?
 

------HAND 1------
Early William Hill £20 67 riders (15/30)
Table "Tourney 1541375 - 2" Seat 2 is the button.
Seat 1: Registrar (1450 in chips)
Seat 2: Champer5 (1445 in chips)
Seat 3: Acerclubs (3075 in chips)
Seat 5: Daes265 (720 in chips)
Seat 6: Calv10 (1900 in chips)
Seat 7: dkauto (1090 in chips)
Seat 8: Monty999 (1450 in chips)
Seat 9: enrico (580 in chips)
Seat 10: Fold'em1 (1400 in chips)
Acerclubs: posts small blind 15
Daes265: posts big blind 30
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Registrar [Qc Qh]
Calv10: folds
dkauto: folds
Monty999: folds
enrico: folds
Fold'em1: folds
Registrar: raises to 90
Champer5: folds
Acerclubs: calls 75
Daes265: folds
----- FLOP ----- [4s Ks Kd]
Acerclubs: bets 90
Registrar: ?

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

I'd put in a good sized raise to like 300. I doubt he bets his trips, and if he raises you, then you can fold I think.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

Got a read on him? Without one, I min-raise. Without anything on that flop for him to draw to, it'll scare the [censored] out of him if he doesn't have a king.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

Raise

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

I raise - my guess is villain is on a small/mid-pp and thinks you whiffed the flop. They probably c/r the flop or turn if they had a king-- I bring it up to 250-300.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

just to add I think his most likely holding here is a mid pocket pair, since you can't call without a K or a high pair.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

Call.

If the turn is a blank, either fold to a bet (read dependent and pretty weak), or raise a bet to get information - if he goes back OTT, then you know he has a K, if he folds, then you take the pot.

If he calls - shut off completely IMO

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Got a read on him? Without one, I min-raise. Without anything on that flop for him to draw to, it'll scare the [censored] out of him if he doesn't have a king.

[/ QUOTE ]

I almost never like the min-raise, and this case is no exception. I don't want to give him any reason to call with his AJ here and spike an A. Put in a good size raise here, fold to a reraise, and be prepared to check behind on the turn if he calls your big flop raise (with the intention of calling a moderate sized bet on the river).

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

Marwan,

Depending on the skill level of the player this could back fire.

if he 'doesn't' bet with trips, he might think that you don't 'raise' with trips on the flop either and come back over the top of you with 1010, 99 etc, in which case you can lay have to lay it down.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

not a fan of the call either, we want him to commit more chips if we are way ahead, build up the pot, plus don't give a free card.. if he's playing a K, our raise should clarify things or at least make us play more cautious.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

In most cases though, he's going to lay it down, there
are plenty of 'what if' situations, but a raise probably works most of the time.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

I understand, but I still don't agree with your flop raise.

This stinks of 'I dont have a king, do you?'

Raising on the turn, is much more powerful, as this is when you would realistically raise if you 'did' have the king, thus providing more meat to your bluff.

I agree, you could donate more chips here, but this is a risk I prefer taking.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

I'm generally not putting him on a K, but i'd rather not give a free card, which is the main reason for the flop raise.. plus if he does have a mid pair that he won't let go of, build the pot right now, why keep it small when you know you're most likely way ahead? If I know my opponent will commit more chips to an inferior hand, I'm going to bet aggressively on every street.. if he won't, I'm still happy with winning the pot.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

ima go against the grain here and say call. This bet is usually a weak hand such as AJ or 77 with 2-3 outs against you, so im not overly worried about giving a free card. I really want to keep this pot small here on the flop, I have position for the rest of the hand and can extract a lot of value out of mid pairs and big aces if played properly. Things change when I play a good aggressive player I know is capable of firing 3 bets here without a king or better, but I doubt the villian here is capable of that.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

In this hand you are either way ahead (prob) or way behind. Call down to the river. I could see an argument for either a flop or turn raise, but i dont think it maximizes value.
Hands you are ahead of JJ-55, AQ-AT.
Hands you are behind AK, KQ, (KJ-KT??)
Raising gets called by how many hands that are behind. 2 or 3, if any. Its gets called by prob. all if you are behind. If raise, do it on the turn. It is stronger and you have given a chance to get more money in against hands that may think they are ahead.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

Couldn't just calling kill your action though? Villain would be worried of a K at this point if you just call, but a raise is more of an indication that his hand might still be good, making him commit more money on later streets. It's kind of backwards thinking, but on paired boards I think people calling your bets is more scarier than people raising you on the flop.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Couldn't just calling kill your action though? Villain would be worried of a K at this point if you just call, but a raise is more of an indication that his hand might still be good, making him commit more money on later streets. It's kind of backwards thinking, but on paired boards I think people calling your bets is more scarier than people raising you on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way... people are much more likely to fold if you raise flop cause if you have a king they are going to have to face two bigger bets on the turn and river because the pot will be larger.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]

----- FLOP ----- [4s Ks Kd]
Acerclubs: bets 90
Registrar: ?


[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO, this is a typical hand where you are way ahead or way behind. He could have the King, but that is a monster and he would have to put you on a big hand to bet that way. You open raised from LP with no one else in the pot. You could have anything from a monster to rags.

The opponent has what?
- a hand that is good enough to call but not reraise
- a hand that is good enough to play out of position
- a hand that is worth playing head-up
- a hand that is worth open betting with a big pair on the flop


Without knowing the player, in my limited experience, this is a common bet with some sort of pair. So what kind of hands could he be holding?

You might well be facing something like 9's, T's or J's.

If so, then you don't want to reraise and push him off the hand. You want him to continue to make bad semi-bluffs or bad calls.

I'm looking at cold-caling the flop here, seeing what the turn brings, and seeing if the opponent is willing to bet out again.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

Calling all the way to river is exceptionally weak tight. Horrible, horrible horrible.

Raising gives you info - sometimes you have to pay for the info

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Calling all the way to river is exceptionally weak tight. Horrible, horrible horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not think 'weak tight' means what you think it means.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising gives you info - sometimes you have to pay for the info

[/ QUOTE ]

You have all the info you need. The point is to get the other guy's chips, and you don't get them by raising.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

Pray tell, what info do you have at the moment?

He has bet on a KKx flop. He could have anything.

You need to raise at some point (my pref being on the turn) to know where you are in the hand.

My perception of weak tight, is someone who likes to call all the way down to the river, as they are either too weak to make a stand, or too tight to put some chips in the pot.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pray tell, what info do you have at the moment?

He has bet on a KKx flop. He could have anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

The third sentence in your post directly contradicts the second.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ima go against the grain here and say call. This bet is usually a weak hand such as AJ or 77 with 2-3 outs against you, so im not overly worried about giving a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not a free card. If the opponent is way behind, which I really expect him to be, then he by betting out in a semi-bluff, he has made a huge layoff to see that turn card.

By raising, I am encouraging him to check if the turn is blank, which would be correct, rather than betting out again, which is a really bad mistake if way behind.

In other words, the flop raise encourages the opponent to make the correct move whether ahead or behind.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Pray tell, what info do you have at the moment?

He has bet on a KKx flop. He could have anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

The third sentence in your post directly contradicts the second.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't regard 'anything' as information. Information to me, allows me to close my opponents range down.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
]I don't regard 'anything' as information. Information to me, allows me to close my opponents range down.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
He has <CC'd a raise PF, then bet out 1/2 pot> on a KKx flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Got a read on him? Without one, I min-raise. Without anything on that flop for him to draw to, it'll scare the [censored] out of him if he doesn't have a king.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt he has a K. Registrar raised pre-flop, he called, making Registrar the agressor. Further, the pre-flop raise was "normal" sized. If he held KK, he would have definitely re-raised pre-flop... we can all agree on that. If he had Kx, would he open betting on the flop, or would be check and let Registrar continue his attack? His raise looks more like a probe... Raise him half his stack... OR... if not sure (like you have some read that he could be one sneaky bugger)... Double his raise.

When are you going to tell us what actually happened?

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt he has a K...His raise looks more like a probe... Raise him half his stack

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

<font color="red"> omfg, just call down. raising is retarded because if he 3-bets his ace-high or lower pair (as plenty of people would do in a lower-limit MTT) then you're going to be making a bad fold. at the same time, he could have a K here too.

standard wa/wb situation, call down. let him keep betting his small PP or his ace high. type 'ty' on the river when he pushes with 88 and you call. </font>

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Got a read on him? Without one, I min-raise. Without anything on that flop for him to draw to, it'll scare the [censored] out of him if he doesn't have a king.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt he has a K. Registrar raised pre-flop, he called, making Registrar the agressor. Further, the pre-flop raise was "normal" sized. If he held KK, he would have definitely re-raised pre-flop... we can all agree on that. If he had Kx, would he open betting on the flop, or would be check and let Registrar continue his attack? His raise looks more like a probe... Raise him half his stack... OR... if not sure (like you have some read that he could be one sneaky bugger)... Double his raise.

When are you going to tell us what actually happened?

[/ QUOTE ]

heh

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

Ok, Registrar, so how did it actually turn out?

It seems there is quite a firm line here between the calls and raises, with more calls than raises. In fact, us raisers are apparently retarded.

What did he have, and how did it finish off?

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

I call the flop and see what he does on the turn. What good does raising do?? If he does not have a King, he will fold and you are WAY, WAY ahead, that is a bad thing. You want him in the hand. If he HAS a king, he will either hammer you and you will lose your raise or he will call you and then check the turn, forcing you to make a tough decision. So, raising the flop is out IMHO. You are NOT folding. So that only leaves calling!

Call the bet, Call any reasonable sized bet after that on the turn. Actually, I am calling this one all the way down. If he checks to me, I check behind. If he open pushes, I call. I might be a donkey, but I am calling this all the way down no matter what.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, us raisers are apparently retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I am a retard ... raise $300. If he pushes back, I'm pretty sure I'm beaten.

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

I did not read any of the replies yet so I may look like a donk here, but I think BB is testing Hero for a K by making the half pot bet. Without specific reads, he can have any two cards to make this play. He's heard Mike Van Sexton enough to know that you can "earn" pot by being aggessive.

Since you have position, I would either smooth call as if I had the K and wanted him to continue betting the turn, or possiblt make a reasonable reraise that doesn't commit too many chips. Maybe pop it to t200 and see what he does.

I might let it go on the turn if I'm unimproved and he gets aggressive.

John

Re: What\'s your move here and why?
 

Really useful thread.

I went over the top with a minimum reraise and he folded.

This was OK. I took down a pot, made a few chips, it was early doors but I think better players play it differently so I posted.

I think the key phrase here is 'well behind or well ahead'. If you're behind, you lose the chips you reraise and potentially more. If you are ahead, he almost certainly folds at this stage of a tournie. He may call with a medium pair but then you're the one worried by the call and he had me outchipped 2 to 1.
So the raise doesn't appear to really help unless you're just happy to take the pot down and move on.
A call is also going to scare him but he may have another stab at the pot with a medium pair. He'll check an ace on the turn I feel. Naturally, the danger of the free card is that he trips his pair or finds the ace. However, if he finds the ace, he's still going to be scared about your call so I think you'll be able to afford to call any bets he makes. If he turns his pair into a boat on the turn or river, the betting will make that clear.
However, early in a low buy in tournie against the chip leader at the table, I'm not too unhappy with the raise and just taking the pot down then and there. Better players than me build bigger stacks by calling, I suspect.