TT facing 2 on the flop
 

Multi-tabling, first couple of orbits, no reads.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero ...?

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Multi-tabling, first couple of orbits, no reads.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (14.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero ...?

[/ QUOTE ]


Raise or fold. I will usually raise in this situation if I have some sort of reads. Without reads, folding cant be too bad.

A lot of the time I'll 3-bet this, and the BB just folds. If he caps, or donk bets the turn, you have a better idea of where you are at.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

If Mp3 is a reasonable player, he will have something like 99-AA or AK capping preflop.
AK ++ 99: 22 combinations

JJ-AA : 24 combinations.

This means that you are behind a bit more often than ahead PF. If he is not capping AK here, you are behind the vast majority of his range.
(AKs and 99 : 8 combinations vs 24).

UTG betting into two people who capped preflop after calling PF himself is a bit mysterious. He could be betting a flushdraw, OESD or something like an overplayed A8, but he might also have you beat with a set or a big slowplayed PP.

If you are ahead against a flush and AK, you will obviously at a minimum have to dodge clubs, A's and K's on the turn and river, giving your hand something like 50% chance to make it against the combined 15 outs your oppositions has, if my math is correct.

All in all, I thing you will win this hand no more than around 1/5 of the time, maybe less, and the chance of a continued raising war is obvious.

On the other hands, the pot is already massive, and it would be a disaster to fold the best hand.

All in all I guess this means I would 3-bet while expecting to loose. If this makes them both slow down, I would see a showdown unless an A falls. If the flop gets capped, I would have to fold to a turn bet, unless I get to close the action with a single bet and no scarecard falls.

I dont think folding on the flop would be a big mistake though.


Please forgive my rather long post - it indicates that I am not sure what to do here myself :-).
I am interested in your comments.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

I think Yentz gave a great answer. I think alot of times in small stakes reading would help some, but mostly math. This situation is one that cries out for needing some kind of read. ( Which is why Yentz had to end with not too sure himself ).


A lot of weak player will play an AK like this after the flop, even AQs or AJs when misses flopping flush draw. They love the pretty hand and think being very aggressive is their best chance and hey, "got myself 6 outs probably maybe any old how."

Just knowing if you are up against a "winning player" might help. I would have to fight back until I saw the turn card and the action at the very least.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of weak player will play an AK like this after the flop, even AQs or AJs when misses flopping flush draw. They love the pretty hand and think being very aggressive is their best chance and hey, "got myself 6 outs probably maybe any old how."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I admit I just moved to 2/4 this week so I am not overly familar with the playing style. However, it seems to me that a strong, aggressive player may play AK/AQ like this and not a weak player as you indicated. Especially if his hand included at least a single club.

UTG+1's donk bet really shouldn't represent a big hand considering he's facing two PF raisers with the capper directly to his left. One would think a set or a slowplayed large PP would check raise this flop. MP3 could easily (in my opinion) be raising overcards containing a club with the intention of knocking out my overcards and buying himself a free look at the river. The pot is quite large at this point, and one would think he'd be doing whatever he could to take it down.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

fold. UTG concerns me calling all that preflop and donkbetting that flop indicates trips not a flush draw or some junk hand, and unless it is A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], i seriousbly doubt MP3 is raising with nothing and you're screwed. 3-bet if you had the T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

i don't see what's wrong with a call here

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

It seems to me that if I continue here it's because I feel my hand may still be best. It's obviously a vulnerable hand, however, and with a chance to send 2 more back to the donk bettor, I can't imagine that a call here is correct.

I had never really thought about calling here. I saw this is as a pure raise or fold situation.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

lots of people who used to check and call too much who need to learn to raise and fold most of the time miss situations where a call might be correct...

here, you have unknowns and a draw-heavy board, but your hand might be best. there's a lot of cards that you would hate to see on the turn, but the pot is large. you'd like to see the turn cheaply before seeing whether it's worth getting to showdown. plus, there's always the chance you hit a ten. in other words... this is a call.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

Facing the cold call makes this hand a lot easier; fold.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

Do you plan on raising a safe turn if both come along?

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

pretty clearly.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

boo.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
lots of people who used to check and call too much who need to learn to raise and fold most of the time miss situations where a call might be correct...

[/ QUOTE ]
I've never been one to check and call [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[ QUOTE ]
here, you have unknowns and a draw-heavy board, but your hand might be best. there's a lot of cards that you would hate to see on the turn, but the pot is large. you'd like to see the turn cheaply before seeing whether it's worth getting to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this line of thinking for the most part. Obviously, if I was closing the action, a raise here wouldn't make much sense considering all of the terrible cards the turn could bring for my hand. However, with the opportunity to perhaps fold UTG+1, I am still leaning towards a raise or fold line.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

folding here would be bad. you also don't want this to be capped. plus, the pot will be so huge even 3-bet UTG+1 may call (and may be correct to do so), if he doesn't cap.

further, there's almost no way this gets checked to you on the turn. your raise on the turn will assuredly drive out UTG+1 (assuming a safe card falls) if he doesn't have a monster (or isn't a complete donk). even further, if he wakes up again on the turn, or 3-bets this flop, you will be able to exit the hand (in general) cheaper than if you 3-bet here (since you must call a cap).

you should see the turn, you shouldn't fold. you aren't certain enough about your equity to raise. call seems clear.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

Thank you for taking the time to respond so much in this thread; your logic is beginning to sink in.

A flop 3 bet by me here would give UTG+1 10.5:1 immediate odds on a call. He can certainly call this with all but the weakest holdings and, as you pointed out, heightens the chance that this flop get caps.

Raising MP3's bet on the turn, however, throws him 2 bets facing 6.5:1 odds making it incorrect for him to call many holdings (assuming he calls the flop and checks the turn).

Let's say I call and UTG+1 3-bets and MP3 caps. Again I'm facing 2 cold. Now the pot would be laying me just over 13:1 I believe. Of course, at this point, I'd have to assume I'm basically drawing to a running straight and my two remaining tens. An easy fold?

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

you have to peel if it comes back capped... and pray for a T. your implied odds when you do hit will help this thin draw. plus the metagame implications, plus the once in a blue moon that on the turn you get this bet, call, or check, check to you when people are pumping draws or overplaying overcards (or have two pair against which you have some hidden outs) and can't get anyone to fold, all of this means you have to peel even if it's capped coming back.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

I think calling a cap back would be really thin, getting around 12.5:1 with the T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] being pretty dirty.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

i didn't say it wasn't pretty thin. in fact, it's very thin. you're almost certainly beat. but you should still make the call most of the time, methinks.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

How many outs are we giving me here? Any club outs seem pretty dirty at this point, making it hard for me to come up with a number.

Oh and I'd just like to say, up front, that calling 2 cold and then calling 2 cold again on the flop makes me feel like a little girl. I must admit, when I feel like a little girl I also feel pretty (and that's a good feeling). However, when it comes to poker, I'm not overly fond of feeling pretty, and therefore, I have come to the conclusion that I hate this hand.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

i don't think a fold if it comes back two cold again would be a terrible mistake, if it were a mistake at all (i might be overestimating the importance of this call for reasons other than correct odds, because it's thin), and i don't think this comes back capped terribly often. pick one, cold-call with the intention of calling if it comes back capped, or cold-call with the intention of folding if it comes back capped (but calling for one more) and run with it. just don't raise or fold.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

Here's the rest of the hand:

Flop: (14.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (13.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (16.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB.

As you can see, I didn't have you sitting next to me, so I 3 bet the flop. On the turn I picked up a gutshot, and with the massive pot I'm pretty sure I had more than enough odds to call even if some of my outs were tainted.

With the flush draw and an overcard hitting on the river, I couldn't imagine I was ahead here like ever although, UTG+1's check confuses me a bit.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

after the flop 3-bet you played this fine.

i think the turn call here is fine

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

can we see the results please?

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

I second abluck. share results please. I know it doesn't influence how the hand is played, I am just really curious now as to what prompted that betting cycle of your opponents.

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the rest of the hand:

Flop: (14.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (13.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (16.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB.

As you can see, I didn't have you sitting next to me, so I 3 bet the flop. On the turn I picked up a gutshot, and with the massive pot I'm pretty sure I had more than enough odds to call even if some of my outs were tainted.

With the flush draw and an overcard hitting on the river, I couldn't imagine I was ahead here like ever although, UTG+1's check confuses me a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guessing that MP3 was pumping the flush draw.

Did UTG have a set? I assume he had 77, 88, or even 22 since the only hand that I can fathom being played this way is T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and that's not possible since you held the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (or 87s if he's really loose preflop).

Re: TT facing 2 on the flop
 

Here ya go:

River: (16.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 18.25 BB.
MP3 has Kh Kd (three of a kind, kings.)
UTG+1 has 2h 2d (three of a kind, twos.)
MP3 wins 14.50 BB.

I was suprised that he bet a made set into a field of PF raisers.