insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

25/50, 5 handed I am SB, villain is BB. Villain is the tightest player here and pretty straight forward. He just won a big pot the previous hand when he flopped a set against an overpair and basically doubled up. Villain has 5000 and I have him covered.

I get Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Everyone limps, I make it 500 (yes i know...a bit excessive) in the SB. Villain minraises 500 more to 1000. Everyone folds. Hero calls.

Flop: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villain bets 2000, Hero instafolds face up...

standard? besides the excessive raise preflop, does anyone do anything differently?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

Do you have set odds on the minraise (I think you do)? If so, fine. If not, fold preflop.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

i dont play nl this high, but does the fact that he just doubled up the previous hand affect the hand range you give him there?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hero instafolds face up...


[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, prob not your best move...

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

i think the pf raise is fine, and if you have this good a read of him the flop fold is fine too. If he wont pay off KK on Qxx boards though you may consider folding preflop. This is all assuming your read is highly likely to be correct (i.e. you this isnt the first tiem you played with him).

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

also it should be added that villain is probably the least experienced at the table.....do you think his reraising preflop hand range opens up then?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

why flawless?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

you dont want people to know that you are laying down QQ on a 662 board when lots of money went in preflop. If they are observant at all you are making things pretty difficult for yourself down the road.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

what if villain shows a better hand? do you still think its a bad play ?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

ABSOLUTELY

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
what if villain shows a better hand? do you still think its a bad play ?

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like he is currently playing in a manner that you know how to exploit. Showing this laydown is only going to cause him to play more correctly against you.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

doubt it.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

I'm confused.

This guy currently isn't bluffing enough.

Showing him a huge fold will probably increase his bluffing frequency.

If he is playing closer to optimal with his bluffing then we don't make as much money.

Which part of this are you disagreeing with?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
Showing him a huge fold will probably increase his bluffing frequency.


[/ QUOTE ]
he wont bluff no matter what.
ever.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Showing him a huge fold will probably increase his bluffing frequency.


[/ QUOTE ]
he wont bluff no matter what.
ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to explain?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

tight player, playing straightforward, doubled up from a 50 BB stack. seems like hes using short stack strategy? without the getting up part

doesnt seem like he'll ever bluff big

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

i don't play this high, but i don't see how you could possibly call a min-raise and then check/fold a pretty ideal flop for QQ. either fold to the min-raise, or bet the flop and then play poker.

and i agree with what everyone has said about showing being bad for image here.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't see how you could possibly call a min-raise and then check/fold a pretty ideal flop for QQ. either fold to the min-raise, or bet the flop and then play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]this advice is spot on, unless you have a very nice read that his hand is only KK or AA based on his postflop bet. Why can't he have AK, anyways I like push/fold preflop here.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

what are you trying to accomplish by showing this hand? just send a message, or are you trying to loosen him up. if im gonna show a hand i like to do it with a specific end in mind and im curious what your looking for with this show.
matty

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't see how you could possibly call a min-raise and then check/fold a pretty ideal flop for QQ. either fold to the min-raise, or bet the flop and then play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]this advice is spot on, unless you have a very nice read that his hand is only KK or AA based on his postflop bet. Why can't he have AK, anyways I like push/fold preflop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting; I think his advice, and yours, is dead wrong. I think he's saying that his read indicates AA/KK and not AK, so he's calling to set (or conceivably bluff when an Ace falls).

Pushing pre-flop seems really, really bad. There's already a small relative chance he has something other than AA/KK (bayesian analysis notwithstanding), and in the event his read is off, pushing will ensure that he doesn't get action from a worse hand. True, he will probably force AK out, but again, I think the chances of AK are extremely small given his description of this player. Folding is viable, against someone inexperienced and super-tight, calling is OK, too, IMO.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
anyways I like push/fold preflop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

mehhhhhhhhhh.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]

Pushing pre-flop seems really, really bad. There's already a small relative chance he has something other than AA/KK

[/ QUOTE ]


mehhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pushing pre-flop seems really, really bad. There's already a small relative chance he has something other than AA/KK

[/ QUOTE ]


mehhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[/ QUOTE ]

As eloquent as this is, would you mind explaining what else you think villain can be on? Do supertight players do this with 88? JJ? AQ?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Pushing pre-flop seems really, really bad. There's already a small relative chance he has something other than AA/KK

[/ QUOTE ]


mehhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[/ QUOTE ]

As eloquent as this is, would you mind explaining what else you think villain can be on? Do supertight players do this with 88? JJ? AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

OP said: [ QUOTE ]
Villain is the tightest player here and pretty straight forward.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me think that he doesnt know villain very well. Tight straightforward players rarely would minraise w/ AA/KK here. That said they rarely minraise w/ anything else; but i'm not inclined to believe villain's range is only AA/KK here. Doesnt mean i dont fold preflop; but i think far >25% of the time villain doesnt have AA/KK. Still not sure what my action would be in OP's spot...

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

also was this online or live?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't see how you could possibly call a min-raise and then check/fold a pretty ideal flop for QQ. either fold to the min-raise, or bet the flop and then play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]this advice is spot on, unless you have a very nice read that his hand is only KK or AA based on his postflop bet. Why can't he have AK, anyways I like push/fold preflop here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting; I think his advice, and yours, is dead wrong. I think he's saying that his read indicates AA/KK and not AK, so he's calling to set (or conceivably bluff when an Ace falls).

this whole hand is insanely read dependent. if you have such a good read on this guy, then look him in the eyes when he gets his cards, see his mouth twitch and recognize it for AA/KK, fold the ladies and get the hell outta dodge.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

that was a big preflop raise on your part and out of the blinds, so his most likely hand is still AA>KK even with the minraise. yes players usually know better than to do that with AA/KK, but in this case you fired huge out of the sb. very different situation imo. but durrrr plays those games; i don't. if he has it he should go to the felt, so i minimum call for set equity. if he can correctly "get away" from KK on a Qxx board with a 2K pot and 4K behind, he's a better player than i.

unclear how tight is tight. tightest player at that table may not be that tight. however, any tightish player who reraises a 10x sb raise from the bb deserves some credit as long as the game isn't an sb raise-steal game, which most aren't.

imo good play, good laydown, sorry he didn't have it. terrible show.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

Christ zeebo.

Why are u pushing... Get AK to fold? I think if you are going to fold QQ on this board, then you sure as heck better be calling with QQ preflop as much as you'd call with 22.

-Jason

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

Out of curiosity, what do you do if you hold KK in that same exact spot?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
Christ zeebo.

Why are u pushing... Get AK to fold? I think if you are going to fold QQ on this board, then you sure as heck better be calling with QQ preflop as much as you'd call with 22.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]I never said I'd push. I'd just say playing for set value is stupid (gut telling me that, haven't done math). Furthermore, I'm pushing so we don't make a huge mistake postflop vs AK (or other random hand) like OP possibly did. I think once we committ to see a flop here, we have committed are stack at hoping he doesn't have AA or KK, so why check-fold a safe flop?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

actually this is live and i know villain very well....

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

durrr,

[ QUOTE ]
i think far >25% of the time villain doesnt have AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Help me out here; the action went call 50, call 50, call 50, raise to 500, tightest player at the table re-raises to 1000. Also, Hero has QQ. You think Villain has less than KK "way more than 25%" of the time? I think he has AA/KK 95% at least, with the odd JJ/other QQ thrown in, and some tiny allowance for insanity. I think he has AK less than 1% of the time.

Who would play AK this way? Why would you reraise, yet make it as inviting as possible for Hero to call if you have AK? Wouldn't you agree that most people are (at least) calling 500 more there with AK, JJ, and everything better, yet folding AK/JJ/QQ at least 25% of the time to a push of 5000?

The only reasoning for playing AK this way against a sane opponent that I can think of is that you feel a raise to 1000 is scarier, and think this guy is capable of laying down QQ and JJ for 500 more. The chances Villain is doing that are between slim and none, IMO.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
The only reasoning for playing AK this way against a sane opponent that I can think of is that you feel a raise to 1000 is scarier, and think this guy is capable of laying down QQ and JJ for 500 more. The chances Villain is doing that are between slim and none, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is why it is horrible to show your hand.

I agree 100% with your post Cero.

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

Minraise preflop makes no sense to me with KK. For fvck's sake, you probably have to call that minraise with a hand like AQ suited or AK suited, not to mention a lot of pocket pairs. I think that this is AA maybe 65% of the time, a very oddly played KK 15% of time, and a pocket pair below QQ 20% of the time. More importantly, if you check a flop w/o an A in it, I think that he is going to play as if he has AA almost 100% of the time, which means that you are very likely to stack him if you flop a set. Looks like a call to me preflop and fold on the flop is fine. A push preflop is Grade A retarded as others have noted.

villain\'s hand....
 

after i showed QQ, he flipped over two black aces. Is showing still a bad play if you believe villain will show his cards too?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
durrr,

[ QUOTE ]
i think far >25% of the time villain doesnt have AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Help me out here; the action went call 50, call 50, call 50, raise to 500, tightest player at the table re-raises to 1000. Also, Hero has QQ. You think Villain has less than KK "way more than 25%" of the time? I think he has AA/KK 95% at least, with the odd JJ/other QQ thrown in, and some tiny allowance for insanity. I think he has AK less than 1% of the time.

Who would play AK this way? Why would you reraise, yet make it as inviting as possible for Hero to call if you have AK? Wouldn't you agree that most people are (at least) calling 500 more there with AK, JJ, and everything better, yet folding AK/JJ/QQ at least 25% of the time to a push of 5000?

The only reasoning for playing AK this way against a sane opponent that I can think of is that you feel a raise to 1000 is scarier, and think this guy is capable of laying down QQ and JJ for 500 more. The chances Villain is doing that are between slim and none, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

THANK YOU. I think it's absurd how little respect people are willing to give certain people's hands just because they didn't play their AA the same way we would.

Re: villain\'s hand....
 

[ QUOTE ]
after i showed QQ, he flipped over two black aces. Is showing still a bad play if you believe villain will show his cards too?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes.

Re: villain\'s hand....
 

[ QUOTE ]
after i showed QQ, he flipped over two black aces.

[/ QUOTE ]
WHO DIDNT KNOW THAT?

Re: villain\'s hand....
 

I'm interested in your reasoning for showing. Why do you think it's smart? How will you exploit the info you just gave later in the game? Or is it just a "See what a great laydown I am making, how cool am I".?

Re: insta fold with overpair 25/50
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually this is live and i know villain very well....

[/ QUOTE ]

this changes things a lot. I'm thinking about the UB 25/50 games w/ my previous responses and admittedly i know very little about live play. I think if villain has AA/KK only 1/3 of the time; but plays well postflop- that this is still a fold preflop.