what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

The dealer will turn the deck upside down or in a position that the players can not always see the top of the deck.

Its not as big a deal in a casino than it is in a home game... If the dealer in a home game is rolling the deck on a consistant basis, leave. But it is something that should not done in either case.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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The dealer will turn the deck upside down or in a position that the players can not always see the top of the deck.

Its not as big a deal in a casino than it is in a home game... If the dealer in a home game is rolling the deck on a consistant basis, leave. But it is something that should not done in either case.

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This is probably a bigger deal in a casino. They know they aren't suppsoed to do it as it threatens the integrity of the game and they think so little of the people paying them that they will do it anyway. It shows laziness on the part of the dealer for doing it and on the part of the room management for not requiring that the dealers hold the deck correctly.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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This is probably a bigger deal in a casino. They know they aren't suppsoed to do it as it threatens the integrity of the game and they think so little of the people paying them that they will do it anyway. It shows laziness on the part of the dealer for doing it and on the part of the room management for not requiring that the dealers hold the deck correctly.

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What I was getting at is that in a casino, it is much less likely they are rolling the deck to cheat you, where in a home game it is more likely. Lots of people cashing in on the poker boom all over the place...

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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This is probably a bigger deal in a casino. They know they aren't suppsoed to do it as it threatens the integrity of the game and they think so little of the people paying them that they will do it anyway. It shows laziness on the part of the dealer for doing it and on the part of the room management for not requiring that the dealers hold the deck correctly.

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What I was getting at is that in a casino, it is much less likely they are rolling the deck to cheat you, where in a home game it is more likely. Lots of people cashing in on the poker boom all over the place...

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I would be more inclined to trust someone in a home game than a stranger in a casino.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

i have to disagree randy. if i were a poker cheat, i'd much rather be doing it in a home game. lets face it, they're cheating, i don't think they mind stealing from people they know, vs stealing from perfect strangers. and they don't have video cameras on them at a home game.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

I could not tell you how many times I've seen a dealer drop a card or more off the top of the deck while rolling it. It's laziness and not allowed. DONT FCKING DO IT DEALERS! Refer to my prior post regarding things such as this that I mentioned last week. I have heard (from more than 1 reliable source) that post has gotten around some management types at various rooms here in town.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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I would be more inclined to trust someone in a home game than a stranger in a casino.

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You shouldn't be.

scrub

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

I'm still a tad confused... holding the deck upside down?! So the bottom card is showing and you are dealing offthe bottom (formely the top) of the deck? It just seems stupid. Wouldn;t worry about this being used as a cheating technique anywhere, all people will know is that 1 card (the bottom card) won't get dealt, not a big enough gap in info to take your money unless they alreayd waaay outplay you.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

He means the dealt is tiled slighlty so you can't see the top card from where you are seated. This allows second deals quite easily.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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I would be more inclined to trust someone in a home game than a stranger in a casino.

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You shouldn't be.

scrub

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You would never play poker again if you saw some of the card tricks I have seen dealers do in downtime. If I invite people to my house to play poker they aren't the sort that are going to steal from me. The reason casinos have very strict procedures is to protect the players, when these procedures are no longer followed you are no longer protected in the casino.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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I'm still a tad confused... holding the deck upside down?! So the bottom card is showing and you are dealing offthe bottom (formely the top) of the deck? It just seems stupid. Wouldn;t worry about this being used as a cheating technique anywhere, all people will know is that 1 card (the bottom card) won't get dealt, not a big enough gap in info to take your money unless they alreayd waaay outplay you.

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It is hard to describe, but if I was there I could show you how the dealer can tae a peak at the cards coming off the top of the deck while it is upside down. There are many bad things that can happen to a player when the dealer rolls the deck. I was in Las Vegas for about a week, and every room I went to was vulnerable to both having a mechanic deal and having money stolen directly from the pot. In today's poker environment the players are not protected.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

I have sat in the 1 seat and clearly seen cards at the top of the deck from a dealer who rolled the deck. She did not roll it completely over just at an angle. (actually it was in Photoc's room).

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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I'm still a tad confused... holding the deck upside down?! So the bottom card is showing and you are dealing offthe bottom (formely the top) of the deck? It just seems stupid. Wouldn;t worry about this being used as a cheating technique anywhere, all people will know is that 1 card (the bottom card) won't get dealt, not a big enough gap in info to take your money unless they alreayd waaay outplay you.

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Nope, you are not getting it. Let me try to be more discriptive.

Most dealers (all in a casino) will use a "cut card", which is not a card at all but a piece of plastic that is exactly the same size as a playing card. When the deck is cut the cut card ends up on the bottom so the bottom card is not exposed. We are not talking about exposing or dealing from the bottom of the deck.

Most dealers will hold the deck in their left hand. So when they need to pull in bets and discards from the left side of the table they need to use their left hand unless they have ape arms. Many will roll the deck while doing this and Randy has already explained why this is a problem. Many will also roll the deck when they are not doing anything or anything that requires their deck hand.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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I would be more inclined to trust someone in a home game than a stranger in a casino.

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You shouldn't be.

scrub

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You would never play poker again if you saw some of the card tricks I have seen dealers do in downtime. If I invite people to my house to play poker they aren't the sort that are going to steal from me. The reason casinos have very strict procedures is to protect the players, when these procedures are no longer followed you are no longer protected in the casino.

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While I agree with you Randy, I think you are misunderstanding what many are refering to as a "home game".

You have to keep in mind that many people are playing in games not played in a casino and many are not games that your buddy at work decided to hold Friday night for kicks, but are regularly running games with dedicated dealers, etc, basically a one table card room.

In many locations their is no easy access to a casino or to games that people want to play. For example in AZ we do not have NL poker games do to state law. As a result there are several regularly running "home" games that do have NL poker. Some are small and more or less like your typical friends game at someone's house, others are full setups with shufflemasters, dedicated dealers and lots of money. Remember AZ was known for it's big games before the law changed and those did not just die because the law changed.

This presents a real problem for many "home game" players. With the amounts of money that some of these games draw, they also draw that element that is there to steal players money. At least in a casino there are camara's, security staff, floor staff, etc, etc. In a home game the only one looking out for your interests is you. Now just think if some of those dealers you have seen in their off time doing magic with the deck decided to start working at one of these home games and wanted to take players money...

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

I have run this kind of game, but I wouldn't really think of it as a home game. We were certain the deck was not rolled etc. I would say in the mid-late 90s we were more selective in hiring dealers than casinos are today. In these sorts of games when the deck is rolled it is most likely that the dealer is lazy or doesn't know any better. There is no real excuse for rolling the deck, I could spend 10 minutes with a delaer and teach tehm to never roll the deck again (if they were interested in improving). Over the years I have talked to quite a few people in poker management, some are adament about dealers following procedures, but some are unaware of why certain procedures exist.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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Most dealers will hold the deck in their left hand. So when they need to pull in bets and discards from the left side of the table they need to use their left hand unless they have ape arms. Many will roll the deck while doing this and Randy has already explained why this is a problem.

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Hi! I've read this whole thread and am still unsure if I know what a deck roll is [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I understood you up until this point (and thank you for taking the time to describe it). Are you saying that the dealer keeps the deck in his left hand when he is pulling in bets and discards? If so, then I understand you. However, I'm still not sure how cards get exposed when that happens.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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However, I'm still not sure how cards get exposed when that happens.

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While the deck is tipped he can slide the top cards off and peek at them. Also this can occur by accident if his grip slips. If the deck is level there is nothing to see even if the top cards slides a little.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

FOr those who don't understand it. Try this.

Take a deck of cards, hold it in your left or right hand with the deck parallel to the table. Now "roll" your hand like you are turning a door knob.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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I have heard (from more than 1 reliable source) that post has gotten around some management types at various rooms here in town.

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Like who? Ballys? where the poker management has never even worked in poker before? I do know some management people who have never even worked in poker before frequent but never post here.

LOL...heres a funny one...there will be a shift supervisor in a room in town who has never worked poker also...but will be taking care of things as soon as they are finished with dealing school!!

GAWD LV Casino managements suck. NO CLUE.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

It's gotten to a few of the newer small rooms AFAIK, since that is where this type of stuff is needed. As bigfishhead says, most of the rooms dont have adequate management whatsoever. All the good ones are taken. We got rooms in town letting 2 and 3 month dealers put a suit on and floor because they can't staff the more qualified help.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

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FOr those who don't understand it. Try this.

Take a deck of cards, hold it in your left or right hand with the deck parallel to the table. Now "roll" your hand like you are turning a door knob.

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For those who don't understand how this exposes cards try this.

Hold the deck as Photoc told you and push the top card forward (or backward or to the left) so that it overhangs the deck. now with that card overhanging the deck rotate the the whole deck the way Photoc described.

Re: what exactly is this \"deck roll\" i\'m hearing so much about?
 

"While I agree with you Randy, I think you are misunderstanding what many are refering to as a "home game".

You have to keep in mind that many people are playing in games not played in a casino and many are not games that your buddy at work decided to hold Friday night for kicks, but are regularly running games with dedicated dealers, etc, basically a one table card room."

It is because of this type of concern that I simply DON'T play in any game larger than the smallest games in casinos at anyone's house. My personal home games aren't worth cheating at, because we buy in for $20 or so and spend a lot more time drinking beer (and capping it blind [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) than we do trying to take each other's money. That's the way it SHOULD be. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

al

management
 

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I have heard (from more than 1 reliable source) that post has gotten around some management types at various rooms here in town.

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Like who? Ballys? where the poker management has never even worked in poker before? I do know some management people who have never even worked in poker before frequent but never post here.

LOL...heres a funny one...there will be a shift supervisor in a room in town who has never worked poker also...but will be taking care of things as soon as they are finished with dealing school!!

GAWD LV Casino managements suck. NO CLUE.

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There are several problems with management, both in the poker rooms, and more importantly, in the casinos.

The primary problem these days is that the casinos don't PAY their floorpeople and shift managers enough money. More money attracts better people, more competition means better overall managers. The typical dealer makes MUCH more than their manager / floorperson does, thus even those management minded individuals who love what they do will inevitably revert back to dealing after they deal with enough BS and get enough flak for long enough (and for far less money than everyone else).

The problem in the poker rooms has to do with two things, ignorant casino upper management and the newly created massive demand.

Casino upper management doesn't usually know a darn thing about poker, so they try to treat it like pit games, or they just fumble about with poker like it's some ammenity they are forced to give, but don't have any real clue about how to do. Poker is NOT the pit. Get rid of that mentality right now, at least if you want your casino's poker room to be successful. Poker is a different animal altogether, and should be treated as such. Poker IS an ammenity, more so than a pure profit maker (at least on a purely profit per square foot analysis), however, poker is still PROFITABLE nonetheless. In addition to the fact of its profitability, poker is also essentially RISK FREE, it's not going to suffer fluctuations like pit games, sports book etc. With all the space in las vegas, the square footage analysis should be a moot point. Poker players do eat in restaraunts, play slots and table games, bet sports, see shows, and everything else. They may not be the TOP OF THE LINE casino patrons, but there is still money to be made, and let it not be said that anyone here in vegas DOESN'T want to make money!

Now the newfound insane demand for poker is really at the heart of the perceptions of incompetence by the knowledgeable poker crowd, such as many 2+2ers. They are partially right, but sometimes they are also partially ignorant as to what the real situation is behind why things are the way they are. It's sure easy to be critical, but not always easy to put yourself in the shoes of poker room staff.

For instance, what would you do if you all of a sudden had to staff about 60 people, and there wasn't ANYONE except for total newbies applying for your positions? Sure, if you could hire nothing but highly experienced, dedicated professional dealers, your room would KICK FRIGGIN' ASS. But gimme a break already, have you been to vegas lately? The VAST majority of dealers in this town are TOTAL NEWBIES. That's because the vast majority of seats at poker tables in this town DIDN'T EXIST THREE YEARS AGO, AND MOST DIDN'T EXIST EVEN 1 OR 1.5 YEARS AGO. Thus virtually EVERYONE is a newbie. The experienced dealers are mostly at the top of the line joints like bellagio and mirage, those with long established rooms. Almost everyone else is brand new with a year or less, mostly less, experience.

Now add in the considerably lower PAY that the people in charge of all these newbies will make! It's a recipe for generating lots of criticism from people like us on 2+2.

But on the other end of the spectrum, you've gotta consider that most of the newbies are dealing the smallest games, which are full of NEWBIE PLAYERS too! So maybe we should all just lighten up a little already and just go with the flow.

Sure, there will be problems, mistakes, disputes, incompetent floors and dealers, bullpucky and everything. Get used to it. The work ethic, the desire to do top notch work, to have pride in what you do, skill and craftsmanship, is a dying entity here in the USA (I am sorry to say). But poker will go on, and it will get better over time. Some rooms will darwinize themselves out of existence, and some will thrive. Same as it has always been, will always be.

al

Re: management
 

Hi Capone,

I think Big Fish is referring to the fact that Bally's opened on August 18th, 2004 with their sportsbook Johnny (who knew NOTHING about poker at the time) in charge of poker. I think Big Fish has a good point there.


I agree with much in your post Capone. However.....


"The experienced dealers are mostly at the top of the line joints like bellagio and mirage, those with long established rooms. Almost everyone else is brand new with a year or less, mostly less, experience."

While they have some excellent dealers, I don't believe Bellagio & Mirage have any monopoly on the top dealers. Gates at Wynn, Jimmy, James, Vivian & Leon at Orleans, Rich at Aladdin, Duk at Excalibur, Drew at Luxor, Dave at Bally's, & almost the entire Monte Carlo & Flamingo staff come immediately to mind (lots more out there too).



"For instance, what would you do if you all of a sudden had to staff about 60 people, and there wasn't ANYONE except for total newbies applying for your positions?"


When Wynn opened they hired perhaps the Excalibur's worst dealer (she sucked bad but does have a real nice smile) while turning down one of the Monte Carlo's best! Go figure.

I do agree that there are only so many top dealer's out there. I just don't believe they are all at Bellagio and Mirage though.


btw, Ceaser's Palace poker is opening on December 21 with like a gazilion tables. One of the guys I know (who got hired recently) barely speaks English (but is a nice enough fellow). At least he knows how to deal (having dealt the WSOP). I would think they (CP) would have some problems staffing their room the way they would like. Let's hope it's a better opening then Green Valley's or Golden Nugget's ("GN" over a year ago but the memory lingers).




Best Wishes

Howard

Re: management
 

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Casino upper management doesn't usually know a darn thing about poker, so they try to treat it like pit games,

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Well, almost. There is one important aspect where they should treat it more like pit games, and that is game supervision. Most of the smaller rooms around town have a floorperson who acts primarily as a brush/cashier. Imagine if they treated the pit this way, take all the pit critters and station them by cashier's cage so that they can't actually see whats going on until a dealer calls for a floorman.

Re: management
 

"But on the other end of the spectrum, you've gotta consider that most of the newbies are dealing the smallest games, which are full of NEWBIE PLAYERS too!"

This is Bull Sh!T in my opinion. Most every Vegas room has no-limit today. Just yesterday some knucklehead dealer, just coming out of the 2-4, couldn't count my $900 flop bet even though I had it evenly stacked. The entire table just looked on in shock at his mental breakdown. We (the players) were all trying to be sympathetic & helpful . But, he was like a deer in the headlights. It took way too long to get him on the right page.


If these rooms are going to spread no-limit (even with the restricted buy-ins, pots can get much bigger then in a $30-60 game), they should try to implement some sort of quality standard for their dealers.


Heck, I like what Cathleen McCall (now floor at Wynn) used to do when she ran Palace Station (before she went to GN & Wynn but after her stint at the Mirage). She would work with the more green dealers and give them dealing classes to help them improve. It helped the dealer's (and players) a lot. I like the way that girl works!


Best Wishes

Howard

Re: management
 

Very well written Al Capone!! I have stated each item you mentioned at more than one occasion. Harrah's corp is a perfect example of paragraphs 1 and 2.

Shortly after tha takeover of Jack Binions properties, they made it be known that poker floor people could no longer accept tokes. They even made it be known that tokes from dealers to floor was a no-no.

Come Jan 2005, and the WPO at Horseshoe Tunica. The floor has to work 7days a week, zero overtime, no envelope from the tournament, and no tokes with 3x times the biz and heartaches. Well they recorded 2 floorpeople taking tokes and fored them. These were the 2 best floor people in Tunica county!

I get the call at home, we want you to take over graveyard says Dennis the asst poker room manager. Kenny Lamberts request (poker room manager). "no thanks Dennis".

After the torunament was over Kenny Lambert asked me to take over the shift. Point blank I said "Kenny, why would I want to take a $500 per week cut in pay?" "Have less job security, with no obvious upward possibilities from a company like Harrahs."?

I always covered the shift when someone wanted a day off, or the holidays. Everyone knew I could do the job well with both customer service and professsionalism within the room. But why would I want to do it under these circumstances?

The pit mentality is a huge huge problem. Most people just dont "get-it" when it comes to what we mean by "pit mentality".

Al, I understand your points well. I take SMALL issue with your thoughts about Bellagio and Mirage having the best...Thats probably true as a general statement. But let me just say, I work at Bellagio, and I play on the clock often. There are tons of long time dealers there with incredibly bad habits. And they get away with everything since they have been there so long, or they "look pretty".

The problem is that even at Bellagio where they actually have a man in suit in charge of hiring and TRAINING...they dont do it! Train I mean...at least not from a "be a professional dealer" standpoint. And I promise you there isnt a school in LV that has a clue either.

Hence as you stated, when it comes to promoting people within the poker business to work in suits in some capacity, they also have not been trained well. And the cycle goes on. Even creating a bigger overall problem.

Best wishes.

Re: management
 

Got a question for you guys who work in the casino.

I am just about to graduate and I had the thought that it might be an interesting interenship is I could work in some casino management with poker. I am not thinking along the lines of dealer but a floorperson.

I don't really know much about how a poker room managament so don't know if this would even be possible.

Does this just sound weird or like there could be something possible with it?