Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

... i'm only sleeping. No stats

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO pauses for a short time bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO almost auto bets</font>, Hero folds.

Thoughts?

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

Well, without any reads, turn and river play aren't consistent, I'd either fold the turn or call the river, and lean towards calling the river.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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Well, without any reads, turn and river play aren't consistent, I'd either fold the turn or call the river, and lean towards calling the river.

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It's possible the turn and river are consistent.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

I play it the same.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

The question is how much more info do you get by his river bet. I would say not much. If he bet any pair lower than jacks on the turn, he's probably gonna do it again on the river. I were in the hand against you I would give up any bluff after the turn since I would assume you would call the river with king high, but a lot of people don't do that, so in your spot I think I would call and be shown an Q, A, or some small-mid pair. . .

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

well, i dont ever threebet in this sot PF, but who cares, i guess...
im checkraising that flop usually as well.
as played, turn and river are perfect, i think.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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im checkraising that flop usually as well.

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followed by a turn bet if just called? edit: if the turn is a rag.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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im checkraising that flop usually as well.

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followed by a turn bet if just called? edit: if the turn is a rag.

[/ QUOTE ]dont see another option.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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im checkraising that flop usually as well.

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followed by a turn bet if just called? edit: if the turn is a rag.

[/ QUOTE ]dont see another option.

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do you not think it's a little excessive? 2bbs to win 5bb when only JJ TT will fold while AK AQ would play this way?

hmm, by combinations (6:6), it's not excessive; surprising.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

That turn card helped you enormously, as you just drew out on all pocket pairs JJ and lower. Therefore I think you should call on the end.

The call the turn fold the river line is sometimes OK. But I don't think this is one of those times as there is simply too much chance you are ahead.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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That turn card helped you enormously, as you just drew out on all pocket pairs JJ and lower.

[/ QUOTE ]seriously?
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Therefore I think you should call on the end.


[/ QUOTE ]i dont.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

"do you not think it's a little excessive? 2bbs to win 5bb when only JJ TT will fold while AK AQ would play this way?

hmm, by combinations (6:6), it's not excessive; surprising."

2 aces left, 3 kings left, 2 queens, 3 jacks.

JJ = 3
TT = 6

AK = 6
AQ = 4
AA/QQ = 2

12 to 9 right?

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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Well, without any reads, turn and river play aren't consistent, I'd either fold the turn or call the river, and lean towards calling the river.

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It's possible the turn and river are consistent.

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I don't see how. If you're behind on the turn you're drawing dead so obviously if your calling its because you think your in front.

The river card can't change anything, and with no reads you have no way of knowing whether this opponent is any more likely to bluff twice or value bet twice. The pause might mean something, but could mean anything or nothing. Maybe he spilt his water glass, maybe he didn't want to bluff on the turn but thought and decided to do so. Maybe after deciding to bluff the turn he committed to bluffing the river and checked the autobet button.

I can't think of any advanced poker logic that can possibily justify calling one street, but not the other. Its just fundamentally wrong against an unknown opponent.

lf

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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I can't think of any advanced poker logic that can possibily justify calling one street, but not the other. Its just fundamentally wrong against an unknown opponent.

lf

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What about the logic that if he bets the 2nd street the chances of his having the best increases to where folding is correct?

i.e. you were calling on the 1st street hoping that he will check behind on the 2nd street often enough in combination with you improve often enough to make the play profitable.

Like you said this is bad against an unknown, but there are certain basic situations where you could pull this off against an unknown.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

lil feller didn't say anything about the flop call, just the logic that if you fold the hand it should be on the turn, and that calling the turn and folding the river is bad, which I agree with, unless you have a strong reason to think you are definitely not good, which is unlikely at party. . .

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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I can't think of any advanced poker logic that can possibily justify calling one street, but not the other. Its just fundamentally wrong against an unknown opponent.

lf

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What about the logic that if he bets the 2nd street the chances of his having the best increases to where folding is correct?

i.e. you were calling on the 1st street hoping that he will check behind on the 2nd street often enough in combination with you improve often enough to make the play profitable.

Like you said this is bad against an unknown, but there are certain basic situations where you could pull this off against an unknown.

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I just can't ever see this being correct against an unknown player. Some players you know will only fire once, an this is certainly a board where players like that would take that line. This is an unknown player though, and if you've convinced yourself that he's bluffing on the turn, then your showing the hand down. If you're not sure of his intention then calling is horrible, because you can't be any more sure when he bets the river because he's an unknown.

Its about expectations. Against somebody you know, and more importantly somebody that knows you, you can reasonably assume that they EXPECT you to call the river after you call the turn. Therefore, you should fold the river if they bet again, since they're expecting you to call.

Against an unknown there are no reasonable expectations, especially online. People do stuff that makes no sense all the time. I'm just saying in this particular instance if your gonna fold, fold on the turn.

lf

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

How about if you simply expect 80% of unknowns to give up after you call the turn?

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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How about if you simply expect 80% of unknowns to give up after you call the turn?

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How you arrive at that number I have no idea. I don't guess against players I don't know. I look them up and remember. Picking a number out of the air that makes the fold look better doesn't make it correct.

lf

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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How about if you simply expect 80% of unknowns to give up after you call the turn?

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How you arrive at that number I have no idea. I don't guess against players I don't know. I look them up and remember. Picking a number out of the air that makes the fold look better doesn't make it correct.

lf

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It is a game of numbers. Not putting numbers on this sort of thing (whether consciously or unconsciously) is just not using your brain.

You say that the fold is fundamentally wrong. Yet if 80% of unknowns give up after the turn call, it is clearly correct. I'm not saying that the 80% figure is right or wrong, I'm saying that based on the assumption it is right, folding the river is the correct play.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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Well, without any reads, turn and river play aren't consistent, I'd either fold the turn or call the river, and lean towards calling the river.

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It's possible the turn and river are consistent.

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I don't see how. [...] I can't think of any advanced poker logic that can possibily justify calling one street, but not the other. Its just fundamentally wrong against an unknown opponent.

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I think I see a problem with your reasoning: If it's correct to never fold on the river, then it's correct to never bluff. Following this, it would now be correct to fold.

--- Chris Callahan

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

As long as CO is a thinking player, I don't mind the fold.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

The principle here is that there are a lot of hands that will take a stab at betting that turn that will give up and not fire the last barrel on the river (all PPs below Qs).

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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How about if you simply expect 80% of unknowns to give up after you call the turn?

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How you arrive at that number I have no idea. I don't guess against players I don't know. I look them up and remember. Picking a number out of the air that makes the fold look better doesn't make it correct.

lf

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It is a game of numbers. Not putting numbers on this sort of thing (whether consciously or unconsciously) is just not using your brain.

You say that the fold is fundamentally wrong. Yet if 80% of unknowns give up after the turn call, it is clearly correct. I'm not saying that the 80% figure is right or wrong, I'm saying that based on the assumption it is right, folding the river is the correct play.

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Obviously its a game of numbers, i'm not an idiot. The problem is how can you safely assume that 80% of unknowns will fold. Every individual person is different at every individual moment in their poker life. Rarely do people make the same decision twice for the exact same reasons. Trying to say that one bet doesn't convince but two bets does, when you know nothing about the player, just seems silly.

I'm not opposed to the flop call. I'm certainly not opposed to the turn call. But if Hero is calls the turn it MUST be because he thinks he has the best hand. Against a known opponent perhaps the river bet can sway that to being certain enought that he's behind. Against an unknown it doesn't change anything. Hero has no knowledge of his standards, and randomly assuming that 80% of unknown online party poker 30/60 players will only bet twice with better than K-high is absurd. I'd be more inclined to believethat 80% of unknowns will bet 100% of the time with every hand they have that doesn't beat K-high. People in that game don't just "give up".


lf

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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The principle here is that there are a lot of hands that will take a stab at betting that turn that will give up and not fire the last barrel on the river (all PPs below Qs).

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I understand the theory, honestly I do. The problem I have is that Hero knows nothing about the villian. With some kind of read I think you can safely assume that this guy will bet the turn with anything, but only the river with a better hand than K-high. How can you assume that against a player you know nothing about? Isn't it worth the 1bb to find out, combined with the possibilty that you still have the best hand?

lf

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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But if Hero is calls the turn it MUST be because he thinks he has the best hand.

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I'm sure you're good enough to realise that "thinking he has the best hand" is not enough. You put your opponent on a hand range. 50% this, 30% this, and 20% this. Not "yeah, I think I'm winning here."

So why can't hero call the turn thinking he's ahead 25%, but fold the river thinking he's ahead 5%?

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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Well, without any reads, turn and river play aren't consistent,

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If your idea of consistency is doing the same thing on every street regardless of new information that is available, there's a different word for that.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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Isn't it worth the 1bb to find out,

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Are you kidding? For 1BB I can buy a nice meal, or pay some bills. Or I could buy an interesting book, which will satisfy my curiosity for at least several hours. [censored] spending it to see what someone had.

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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But if Hero is calls the turn it MUST be because he thinks he has the best hand.

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I'm sure you're good enough to realise that "thinking he has the best hand" is not enough. You put your opponent on a hand range. 50% this, 30% this, and 20% this. Not "yeah, I think I'm winning here."

So why can't hero call the turn thinking he's ahead 25%, but fold the river thinking he's ahead 5%?

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I understand what your talking about, honestly I do. I just don't see it possible that vs a player he knows nothing about that a 2nd bet tips the scales that much.

lf

Re: Please don\'t wake me, no don\'t shake me, leave me where i am
 

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But if Hero is calls the turn it MUST be because he thinks he has the best hand.

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I'm sure you're good enough to realise that "thinking he has the best hand" is not enough. You put your opponent on a hand range. 50% this, 30% this, and 20% this. Not "yeah, I think I'm winning here."

So why can't hero call the turn thinking he's ahead 25%, but fold the river thinking he's ahead 5%?

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I understand what your talking about, honestly I do. I just don't see it possible that vs a player he knows nothing about that a 2nd bet tips the scales that much.

lf

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On the turn the opponent (if he plays reasonable well) will mix his strategy so that you get a borderline call with a bluff catcher. On the river he must cut down on the bluffing frequency so that you get another tough decision. If he knew that you would never fold the river he would simply never bluff, and your call with KJ would win 0% of the time. Hence you must sometimes call the turn and fold the river.

This is simple bluffing theory.