I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

Reads: Button is normally very loose passive and calls down with any sort of hand. Lately he's been tilting though and got caught 3-bettng K8 vs my AA in the SB, and called down UI with it. He's raised 3 of the last 5-6 hands. SB is a TAG, and likely notices the way Button has been playing recently. He's open raised the button vs. me and called my PF 3bet, folded the 3diamond flop.


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) hand converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (10 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

I'll give my thought process on the hand to see if this adds some discussion.

Preflop: There's a decent enough chance that SB is 3-betting lightly for me to have equity here and the chance of button having a big hand is minimal with the current read. Getting an immediate 3.5:1 with a solid hand, plus having position on the PF 3-bettor I feel makes this a go.

Flop: Looks like a pretty good flop for me. SB is betting out with any two given my read. A raise could be in order here, however there's a good chance button cold calls lightly and it will make it very hard to play this hand leading OOP. I decide to call, expecting an overcall from button and reevaluate on the turn.

Turn: Had the turn been an A or Q I'd likely fold to a follow-up SB bet. With a relative rag hitting, I'm getting 7:1 to call SB's turn bet. Again, SB is probably overcalling with a wide variety of hands, so if I want to see a showdown here it seems the best way to play it is a turn raise with a free showdown option should button fold. If SB were to donk the river after a turn raise, I'd be tempted to call simply from the pot size and the possible missed diamond draw.

With 7BB in the pot with me to act on the turn, does it seem reasonable to find a way to showdown given my description?

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

I like the way you played this given your reads. I sort of want to cap preflop

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however there's a good chance button cold calls lightly

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Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

I like the play overall. I think given your read, that there might be some value to be strongly considered in betting the river. He could have a king or a higher PP, but given his play and your read, that doesn't seem likely with his play

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

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I like the play overall. I think given your read, that there might be some value to be strongly considered in betting the river.

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He was a decent player overall with standard hand reading abilities. I really don't see what he could call a river bet with that I beat. Seems like 44 or 55 are the only ones. I'd say there's a more likely chance of a river bet causing a higher PP like 99 or TT to fold than to get value from 44/55. In both cases that chance is near nil, so checking seems to be the best option.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

I think raising the flop is in definite order. While I normally would cap preflop, given the button you described, I think calling is okay.
The fact that the button cold calls lightly should make the flop raise easier, not harder. If he does manage to catch his 3 or 6 outs, then oh well, you still will make more in the long run. (And when the button cold calls, you can give a lot more credibility to a SB 3bet). Also, I think you missed a bit of value from this hand and perhaps by raising the flop and then firing the turn and river (depending on what hits, assuming SB shows no more aggression) is probably the way to go.

The way you played it makes the button play his hand perfectly.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

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I like the play overall. I think given your read, that there might be some value to be strongly considered in betting the river.

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He was a decent player overall with standard hand reading abilities. I really don't see what he could call a river bet with that I beat. Seems like 44 or 55 are the only ones. I'd say there's a more likely chance of a river bet causing a higher PP like 99 or TT to fold than to get value from 44/55. In both cases that chance is near nil, so checking seems to be the best option.

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The river only LOOKS like a good place to bet, but the truth is the opposite. I can't think of any reason to bet this river.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

man you need work on your table selection, i just sat at one of your tables thinkin you'd found some fish, boy was I wrong

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

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man you need work on your table selection, i just sat at one of your tables thinkin you'd found some fish, boy was I wrong

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Agreed, for tonight anyway. Seemed like any time I found a table it dried up. Called it a night early because I was getting frustrated finding some good tables. That, and getting donk bet/3bet on by a turned flush draw only to hit on the river.

Has anyone else noticed that the games really aren't that juicy lately on a super late Saturday night? I'm finding my favorite loose-passives to be on a bit earlier.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

Some nice thoughts, let's evaluate them.

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I think raising the flop is in definite order. While I normally would cap preflop, given the button you described, I think calling is okay.
The fact that the button cold calls lightly should make the flop raise easier, not harder. If he does manage to catch his 3 or 6 outs, then oh well, you still will make more in the long run. (And when the button cold calls, you can give a lot more credibility to a SB 3bet).

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An argument could be made for raising this flop, however I'm against it for a few reasons. First, we have a very vulnerable hand that even if it's ahead right now probably doesn't have much equity due to the variety of draws, overcards, and paired K's possibilities. Since I'm confident Button is cold calling with a large range of hands, this puts me in quite the predicament down the road. Any diamond or overcard to my 8's is going to be very tough to play when I have initiative. I'd likely have to bet the turn again with very little folding equity and reevaluate on the river once more to whether I can even see a showdown. The problem with raising this flop is that we're almost always obligated to follow up on the turn when again our equity is negligable. We'd like to get to showdown as cheaply and safely as possible in this hand, not pump the pot.


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Also, I think you missed a bit of value from this hand and perhaps by raising the flop and then firing the turn and river (depending on what hits, assuming SB shows no more aggression) is probably the way to go.

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Again, all we have is a pair of 8's. We don't have a lot of value in here, we're simply trying to efficiently take a semi-bloated pot when there's a decent chance we're ahead. FWIW, there's almost no range of hands that SB can call a bet on the river and I still beat. Button, however would call down with A-high UI.

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The way you played it makes the button play his hand perfectly.

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That's ok, especially because there's 2 people in the pot. The question is did I play my hand perfectly, not the button. Raising the flop (and forcing button to possibly make a mistake by cold calling) will most likely lead to me making a bigger mistake than him when I have to make very tough turn and river decisions.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

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man you need work on your table selection, i just sat at one of your tables thinkin you'd found some fish, boy was I wrong

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Agreed, for tonight anyway. Seemed like any time I found a table it dried up. Called it a night early because I was getting frustrated finding some good tables. That, and getting donk bet/3bet on by a turned flush draw only to hit on the river.

Has anyone else noticed that the games really aren't that juicy lately on a super late Saturday night? I'm finding my favorite loose-passives to be on a bit earlier.

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wow dude I was 4tabling 50+ vpip tables when I sat down with you

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

i likey.

btw, i noticed you were scurred of me today [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

after reading the responses i have to say i dont like capping pf. i seem to remember this sort of hand coming up a couple times. most posters always say they would cap pf.

its so much easier to play if you dont. this pot is already quite large and will get larger no matter what. it will be, imo, large enough that we want to give ourselves the most chance to win it. the best way is to maintain our position relative the raiser.

equity schmquity. we are against at least 2 combined overcards here like 90% of the time and probably 4 overcards like 30% of the time (i have no evidence for this). gimme 1010 and i cap. 99 is close.

by capping we effectively turn the lights off and look for our 14th beer.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

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by capping we effectively turn the lights off and look for our 14th beer.

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sounds nice actually


Seriously though good post. I'm the only one that came close to advocating capping preflop in this thread, but I really wasn't. I think my point was really that there are a lot of opponents that will fold many hands to the cap in the case of the button. I mean if you are button and you come crashing in with K9o and you see reraise/reraise you're mucking all day against hero. there is a lot of value in taking those four overcards you mentioned and make them only two. not against this guy though, exactly like you said in your post.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

Okay, just so I got this straight: This hand g00t, but overcall by table selection sucks and I fold like a b*tch. I'll work on the latter two.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

I understand your reasoning, but I still raise the flop. I don't care much what Button has, but I care alot what SB has. Raising the flop is the most affordable way to find out in my opinion.

Although your way conveys more strength, you commit 5 small bets postflop before you get any feedback. It may cost me 4 small bets, but I may also get away for 2 small bets and I don't think your line cause SB to fold many more hands than mine does although it may cause button to fold the turn more than mine.

If SB is in fact solid I don't think he can call my flop raise and a river bet without a K or a good draw. If he 3-bets the flop or donks the turn I fold immediately. If he check calls the turn I check behind him on the river. If I get heads up with Button, great. I am showing it down then.

Cartman

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

I just noticed that you were up against the tag on the river and not the dude on tilt, nm about the value bet idea

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

Not a bad idea. A few things that make me question it though. If I raise, button cold calls, and SB 3-bets, then I think I have to call one more for my 2outer and fold the turn UI. On the flip side, if I raise, button folds, and SB 3bets, can I really fold HU like this for one more? When I'm playing well the answer could be yes, but this guy was tricky enough that when I fold to the 3-bet I still don't feel good about it.

One last question with this, suppose I raise button cold calls and SB calls. Turn rag I bet, both call. What's my river line here? I'd assume I'm looking to check and hope button checks through as well. If he bets though and SB calls as well, I think it's a fold for me. Not sure what my point is with this, just analyzing the tougher scenarious raising this flop will have to face in order to make it a more +EV move.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

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Not a bad idea. A few things that make me question it though. If I raise, button cold calls, and SB 3-bets, then I think I have to call one more for my 2outer and fold the turn UI

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I agree.

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On the flip side, if I raise, button folds, and SB 3bets, can I really fold HU like this for one more? When I'm playing well the answer could be yes, but this guy was tricky enough that when I fold to the 3-bet I still don't feel good about it.

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I can easily fold for one more. Here is my assessment of the communication between us so far this hand:

SB 3-bets preflop: "I have a some showdown value"
You call two in the BB: "I have a hand too"
(SB's flop bet says nothing)
You raise the flop: "Look, I know damn well you may have a K and I don't care"
SB 3-bets: "I know you know damn well I may have a K and that you like your hand well enough to raise anyway and I don't give a rat's ass because I do have at least a K and I probably have you outkicked if we both have one!"

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One last question with this, suppose I raise button cold calls and SB calls. Turn rag I bet, both call. What's my river line here? I'd assume I'm looking to check and hope button checks through as well. If he bets though and SB calls as well, I think it's a fold for me.

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Under normal circumstances I think this is the only river plan. But given button's state of mind, I can certainly see him betting with a worse hand and when we check the river I can see SB calling with something as weak as a good Ace. I'm sure your judgment of the situation would be better than mine because you were the one playing with them, but by my estimate the pot would be about 12.5 BB when it came back to me on the river. I would think your hand would be good the required 7.4% of the time required to make the crying call.

Re: I\'m back - 88 in the BB
 

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We'd like to get to showdown as cheaply and safely as possible in this hand, not pump the pot.

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A Kxx flop is very good for your hand given the betting so far. You want to be putting in as much money when you're ahead, and raising the flop not only does that, but also (given the presence of the button likely cold-calling), allows you to cheaply get away when you're behind.

If the button is very likely to fold your flop raise, then you should definitely be capping PF.

I see no problem with taking the initiative going into the turn. You're not looking nor expecting to gain folding equity, you're simply trying to get more money in while ahead. You're very unlikely to be bluffed off of this hand.
I take back my suggestion of betting the river (if you raised the flop and bet the turn). However, a lot does depend on how the SB plays postflop, and surely having the option of value-betting the river or checking-behind is a lot in itself.

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The question is did I play my hand perfectly, not the button.

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The way you played the hand, you get less money from the button when he misses, and lose the same when he hits. You've allowed the button to see a flop and turn for only 1SB each. You can make the button make more mistakes (while still putting in almost the same amount of money by the turn) by raising the flop.