Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

for the November event. Read the last sentence. Then let's discuss the merits of this. I have been in contact with Greg Lang (who along with Todd are great guys) at HPT and registered my opposition to this. He informed me that it was introduced because "Paul The reason this came about is several individuals that did not qualify have been requesting it..."

My reply was "Some guys with more money than skill will buy in and suck out at the Sunday tables instead of taking their chances with their 8 3 offsuits in the qualifying round. So those of us who have 440 or 550 or 275, but not 2000 are penalized twice. Once by having to qualify and the second by having more donks make the finals than normal."

Geez, How about if I pay $4000 and go directly to the final table?

Grand Casino - Hinckley will Be Hosting
The Heartland Poker Tour
on November 25th - 27th, 2005

Preliminary Qualifiers will be held on November 25th & 26th at 10:00am and 5:00pm. The top 20% advance to Sunday. Final table will be televised to air at a later date.
Buy-In: $400 + $40 Entry Fee · Pay back for top 30 places!

Direct Buy-In To Sunday's Final Is Now Available!
Buy-in to Sunday's Finals For $2,200
Available Saturday from 5:00pm until 7:45am on Sunday

HPT website

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

I'll be skipping that one.

RB

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

I don't get it; how is this any different from any other big tournament where you can either win an entry through a satellite or buy in directly?

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Its not.

And to not want more donk direct buy-in people is a HORRIBLE argument. Please read what you are saying. So you want the competition on Sunday to be HARDER? I dont get it.

I'll take a field of 400 with 200 donks over a field of 200 with 0 donks any day.

I'm happy to see the direct buyin. I can't drive that far and be gone on weekdays with a "chance" to qualify for the main event on Sunday. I'm very tempted to hit one of these, and am glad to see them implement the direct buyin option.

Call me a donk if you will.

Nick

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

The only way this could be a bad thing is if the buy-in money didn't go into the prize pool. You know, if the only prize was pride, then I'd agree with you completely. As is, your argument is baffling. I'm scratching my head wondering if you are serious.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Please remember that tournaments are only profitable as long as there are players worse than you in the tournament. The worse they are, the better.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it; how is this any different from any other big tournament where you can either win an entry through a satellite or buy in directly?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a direct buy-in to the final round...Satellites just get you into the regular qualifying rounds.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

stop whining

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please remember that tournaments are only profitable as long as there are players worse than you in the tournament. The worse they are, the better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Even I'm the only one to say this, I'll say it. I think better competitors make a better competition. We could argue all day about this.

One point that I am making and nobody is touching on is the direct buy-in itself. I perhaps shouldn't have muddied the issue by throwing the phrase donk in.

I just feel that allowing a direct buy-in is unfair to the majority of the field. Now from a money management point of view, it's stupid to spend $2k for a chance to win $30k. With $2k one could enter a bigger tourny and play for a bigger payoff. So in that regard it's may seem acceptable since the extra 1600 will go into the prize fund and be a quasi "tax" on those guys.

But still, not all of the 150-200 players financially have this option, so it is unfair.

It's also unfair because 150-200 players will have to beat 80% of the players in their qualifying round, while the guys blowing $2k won't.

And as I said in my OP; if this is fair then let me put up $4k and go directly to the final table...

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Logic obviously is not one of your strong suits.

Have you ever heard of the term game selection?

The WSOP is unfair too btw. I mean, how fair is it that people can buy in directly to the main event for 10k, while the majority of us have to "qualify" by beating 95% of the field to get into the main event. UNFAIR I tell you.

I hurt that I have to post this.

Nick

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
Logic obviously is not one of your strong suits.

[/ QUOTE ]

And reading comprehension isn't one of yours. (Besides the fact that you can't spell the word "always"). [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

You and others keeping talking oranges, while I'm talking apples.

Buying into a main event qualifying round versus winning a satellite to that qualifying round is a different issue than buying directly into a final round without having to qualify at all...

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

I am surprised someone with as many posts as you is making such a stupid argument.

1) You want to be playing against bad players, not good players, in every situation in poker. No exception.

2) This is still no different from a normal tournament like the WSOP ME that has satellites as well as a direct buyin option. It's ridiculous to say it's "not fair" because you can't afford the direct buyin. If you don't like the tournament's structure, just don't play in it and stop whining.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

he intentionally spellt always wrong smart guy

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

what aJOPKE

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't like the tournament's structure, just don't play in it and stop whining.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't like my posts, then just don't reply and stop whining.

But seriously, if you guys don't see the difference between buying into a final round versus a qualifying round then there's no point in continuing.

As far as affording the $2k, it's a strategic issue more than a financial. As I said, $2k is better spent entering a bigger event with a bigger payoff.

I don't blame the HPT guys for trying any trick they can think of. I know it's tough to run a start-up business, especially a tournament business. I used to bowl competitively. TD's have people coming at them from all directions and have the uphill task of trying to please all of them while building a bigger base of competitors, sponsors and prize funds.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Ok, later when I have nothing better to do than attempt to explain this in what your brain will think is logical, I'll try to make it more clear why there is NO DIFFERENCE to the end customer between a satellite - main event scenario, and a qualifier - main event scenario. Come to think of it, wouldn't you think satellite and qualifier are somewhat synonymous?

Regardless. Here's another reason this is great.

In event #3, the total prize pool appeared to be 100k. That means that assuming a $300 entry (Plus rake) there were 334 people that entered the qualifiers. And if 20% advanced, then a total of 67 people played in the finals.

Lets assume the same, with direct buy-in still available. And lets pretend that 20% of the people are going to direct buy in, and of those 20%, 10% will attempt to qualify first.

So, 334 people show up again. But 33 of them are going to plunk down 1500 (The direct buyin for a $300 event) instead of qualifying. So add $49500 to the prize pool right away. 300 people play qualifiers, adding 90k to the prize pool. And since 25 of our 34 people who tried to qualify but intended to direct buyin didnt make it, they then buy in directly for another $37500.

So, instead of having a 90 or 100k prizepool, we now have a prize pool that is $177000.

68 people qualified. 59 people bought in directly. So 127 people play on Sunday for a prize pool of 177k.

Please, oh please tell me how this cannot be GREAT for a solid/good player??

Nick

Note: I made this post with 3 minutes while my wife pestered me to leave. I did not double check my math. So meh. donkeys alwasy draw~

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
The top 20% advance to Sunday. Final table will be televised to air at a later date.
Buy-In: $400 + $40 Entry Fee

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, top 20% advance, so that's one in five. so, 5*$440 = $2200. You "win" $2200 by finishing in the top 20%. Direct buy-in players pay the same. I have no problem with this. True, I prefer smaller fields, I am a much better SH player, but I'm not gonna complain about more players buying in.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

As I said before you reading comprehension is poor. I agree the extra money going nto the prize fund is +EV. That's not the issue. The issue is they get to skate in.

And as I said in my OP, let me pay $4k and skate into the final table directly...

A personal note to Chief. Your people skills suck. You imply that I am stupid because I don't agree with you on some points. Well, you are stupid because you keep hammering the money aspect (which I agreed with) which is not the crux of the issue.

Obviously you obtained your moderator role not through ability but most likely from _______. Readers use your imagination. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

how are the skating into the final table directly?

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Attempt at logic #2:

Please tell me how comparing these two things are apples and oranges.


Situation 1

The tournaments is on Sunday. The buyin is $2000 +150.
There is a supersatellite tournament on friday and saturday evenings to the sunday event. You buyin for $400 +25 and they will pay out seats in sundays tourney for every $2150 that is in the final prize pool. If you choose to, you may simply buy in for $2000 +150, as is standard for a tournament.


Situation 2:

The tournament is on Sunday. The buyin is $2000 + 150. There are qualifiers at 8 am and 5 pm on friday and saturday. The buyin at those qualifiers is $400 + 25, and the top 20% will advance to the tournament on sunday. If you choose to, you may simply buy in for $2000 +150, as is standard for a tournament.


Please tell me how these two situations are drastically different? The only difference, is that one of these situations is par for the course at the Bellagio or any other casino that hosts tourneys. The other situation is obviously the HPT event setup. The ONLY difference between these two, is the use of the word qualifier vs. supersatellite.

Tek, agree or disagree? If disagree, please explain clearly.

Nick

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
As I said before you reading comprehension is poor. I agree the extra money going nto the prize fund is +EV. That's not the issue. The issue is they get to skate in.

And as I said in my OP, let me pay $4k and skate into the final table directly...

A personal note to Chief. Your people skills suck. You imply that I am stupid because I don't agree with you on some points. Well, you are stupid because you keep hammering the money aspect (which I agreed with) which is not the crux of the issue.

Obviously you obtained your moderator role not through ability but most likely from _______. Readers use your imagination. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I did say that logic is not one of your strong suits, which I suppose is simply my opinion. I think most people might agree with me at this point. I have not and will continue to refrain from attacking you personally. I only ask the same from you.

Read my last post, I'd really like to hear your reply.

Nick

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Okay, I'll go slow.

The HPT tournaments have entry fees ranging from $275 to $550. There are anywhere from two to four days of qualifying.

That means that everyone who pays the entry fee, $440 in the November event for example, has to be in the top 20% of the players in that days qualifying round. If there are 90 players, the round is over for that day when 18 players are left, with at least one chip. Those 18 plus the players from the top 20% on the other qualifying days advance to the Sunday playoffs where everyone will start with a new stack of equal chips.

Yes, there are satellites for around $65 to get into the qualifying round (instead of paying $440). That's fine. I don't have a problem with that.

The issue is this NEW idea they have where instead of paying $440 to enter the qualifying round, one can pay $2200 and NOT HAVE TO QUALIFY BUT GO DIRECTLY TO THE SUNDAY FINALS.

So yes, the extra $1780 increases the prize fund. Great. But these guys get special treatment because they don't have to put forth the same effort to get to the finals.

As Greg stated in one of his emails to me, he doesn't think that more than a few guys will do this.

So therefore, the prize fund won't go up that much and the extra money will not benefit the finalists that much after the extra money is filtered throughout the payoff spots. So basically he is giving special treatment to a select few guys who admit they can't make through the qualifying round based on their skill.

I'll keep saying it. If this is fair then I'll pay $4k to go directly to the final table...

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Civility please. Any further personal attacks will result in the thread locked and the violator banned.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

One dealer per table, please [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

everything is civil in this tread no need for locking it up

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

You have yet to explain how this is different from any other tournament with satellites.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
One dealer per table, please [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Negative, Chief is not acting as a moderator in this thread since he is actively engaged.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
everything is civil in this tread no need for locking it up

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks but it's up to me (or another mod) to decide what's civil and when someone calls another poster "stupid" the line has been crossed. Flaming is not tolerated. End of discussion on this.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Doesn't this seem like a step tourney on Party, where you can enter a step 1 for a spot in step two, etc.? Since you say you can play a $65 satellite to get into this $440 qualifier, and then others can buy right in to the main event for $2200. So basically the $65 satellite gets you into a $440 satellite which gets you into main event. Should people that get to a Party Poker Step 5 be pissed if they made it from a lower step while others bought directly in?

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't this seem like a step tourney on Party, where you can enter a step 1 for a spot in step two, etc.?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, probably because it's the exact same concept.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Here's an analogy.

You can pay $10k and play in the WSOP Main Event on Day 1.

Or you can win a satellite and show up on Day 1.

Or you can pay $50k and just show up on the last day and not have to go through all the hands and take the risks that the other finalists had to go through.

Now do you guys see the difference?

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

That is not analogous to the situation at hand. The "final round" is essentially an entire separate tournament because everyone in it starts with the same chip stack regardless of whether they qualified in the "preliminary rounds" or bought in directly. It might be confusing because of the nomenclature they are using, but think of it as the "real" tournament just being what they are calling the "final round" and the preliminary rounds just a satellite.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Dude if you all start with the same chip count on the second day, its like a whole new tournament. Its not like I'm hopping into Day 5 of the Main Event and getting whatever the average chip stack is. It's OK, you tried to take a stand, by now you must have realized you are wrong, no shame in admitting it, unless you want to continue the "I'm right and the world is crazy" campaign.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

You are totally wrong. The Sunday finals is not a seperate tournament. It's the final round for those who were in the top 20% of their qualifying day. Here's the structure for this month:

Preliminary Qualifiers will be held on October 28th & 29th at 10:00am and 5:00pm.
The top 20% advance to Sunday. Final table will be televised to air at a later date.

Buy-In: $250 + $25 Entry Fee · Pay back for top 30 places!

Now here's the structure for November:

Preliminary Qualifiers will be held on November 25th & 26th at 10:00am and 5:00pm.
The top 20% advance to Sunday. Final table will be televised to air at a later date.
Buy-In: $400 + $40 Entry Fee · Pay back for top 30 places!

Direct Buy-In To Sunday's Final Is Now Available!
Buy-in to Sunday's Finals For $2,200
Available Saturday from 5:00pm until 7:45am on Sunday

The direct buy-in to Sunday sidesteps the normal qualifying round for those who pay $2200.

As Greg stated in his email to me, it's a few guys who basically admit they aren't skilled enough to qualify on Friday or Saturday who want to fork over some money to go directly to the Sunday final playoffs.

The extra money they are willing to pay is beside the point. The issue is they are getting special treatment by not having to beat 80% of the players on any particular qualifying day like the rest of us.

I'll pay $4k and just show up for the final 6 TV table. How about that? That's an extra $3600 for the prize pool and a guaranteed breakeven or better for me...

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Tek,

You have yet to explain what the difference is between situation #1, and situation #2. If there is no difference, then this discussion has no merit. If there is a difference, I'd like to have it explained to me.

Furthermore, your main argument seems to continue to center around that you dont want people who otherwise seem incapable of qualifying, to play in the main tournament. This is akin to wanting to get rid of the fish so you can play with the experts. This is not +EV.

Isn't that why we play poker?

Nick

p.s. This one day, I had two people challenge me to 10k freezeouts HU. One of them was a donk who was still getting a grasp of the terminology "flop, turn, river" and the other was Phil Helmuth. Which should I choose? This is tough~

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

My PM to you will be my final statement on this. You are really embarrassing yourself in this thread.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

One other point. Your argument that you should therefore be able to pay $4k and start at the FT is also flawed and illogical. If ever a tournament were to implement that, you would need to pay 1/10th (Assuming a 10 person FT) of the prize pool. Assuming 300 entrants paying $400 each, $12000 would be sufficient to buy you a place at the FT. If such a silly idea were ever implemented.

Nick

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

Okay, you guys are all correct. And the Sunday finals are just a qualifier for the final table.

I'll write out a check for $4k to go directly to the TV table. I'd like seat 3 please.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
One other point. Your argument that you should therefore be able to pay $4k and start at the FT is also flawed and illogical. If ever a tournament were to implement that, you would need to pay 1/10th (Assuming a 10 person FT) of the prize pool. Assuming 300 entrants paying $400 each, $12000 would be sufficient to buy you a place at the FT. If such a silly idea were ever implemented.

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

Who would pay $12k for a 1st place payout of 30-40k range?

$4k would essentially guarantee a breakeven in these tournies if one busted out in 6th place.

Re: Heartland Poker Tour allows questionable entry option
 

[ QUOTE ]
Furthermore, your main argument seems to continue to center around that you don't want people who otherwise seem incapable of qualifying, to play in the main tournament. This is akin to wanting to get rid of the fish so you can play with the experts. This is not +EV.

Isn't that why we play poker?

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

That's for each of us to decide. In bowling competition and poker as well, I play better against better competition.

I understand your argument, and for most people it may be the best (read: easy) path.