10/20 KK
 

No read on villain. The SB is, believe it or not, 18.6/8.62/1.90 over 4000 hands. I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] the terrible TAGs that infest these games.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: I am CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I 3-bet</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, I call, SB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I cap</font>.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

capping is bad here without a read. your hand just is not, on average, strong enought for 5bb to go in on the turn and river.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
No read on villain. The SB is, believe it or not, 18.6/8.62/1.90 over 4000 hands. I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] the terrible TAGs that infest these games.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: I am CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I 3-bet</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, I call, SB calls.

Turn: (9.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I cap</font>.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless there is something else about this player you're not telling us I don't see any reason to cap this turn.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

u cap? i'm not as good as you, but it seems like you are behind to me.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

I don't think he'll push a draw like AcJc or QQ like this.
AA/JJ/77 are together easily more likely than AcJc/QQ.
Call down from the 3-bet.
Also the cap might expose us for a river check/raise and I would hate not going to a sd against an unknown here.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

I just call down his 3-bet. It seems to me as though you over played your hand a little unless you know this opponent is VERY aggressive.

SGS

Re: 10/20 KK
 

if you take lessons from me you will win a lot more money cause you will calm down a little bit probably

Re: 10/20 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you take lessons from me you will win a lot more money cause you will calm down a little bit probably

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20 KK
 

this guy is hardly an unknown if jason has 4k hands on him (logged or played with i dunno), but i agree with nick's argument. kinda like the 88 hand from 5/10 sixmax this hand can make sense with a good read, but i dont like capping the turn when you put him on a general range. .

Re: 10/20 KK
 

What range of hands do you folks put him on when he didn't cap preflop and bet into me on the flop?

Re: 10/20 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
this guy is hardly an unknown if jason has 4k hands on him (logged or played with i dunno)

[/ QUOTE ]
Heh, I feel stupid [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20 KK
 

not sure if you guys are being sarcastic, but main villian is unknown, sb (folds on turn) is the one with stats...

Re: 10/20 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
What range of hands do you folks put him on when he didn't cap preflop and bet into me on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
When he 3-bets you on the turn you should be thinking more about that strength he's showing rather than why he betted the flop.

I can see your point though, why would he bet into you on the flop with JJ/77? But there isn't much of a field to blow, so he might just looked to bet/3-bet you. Also, just as you pointed out, this is a decent player you're up against, but no genius.

What hands do you think he'll 3-bet the turn with after getting raised on both the flop and turn by the pfr? You're showing great strength here. I think capping is spewing.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
What range of hands do you folks put him on when he didn't cap preflop and bet into me on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

any J (AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, suited or off as appropriate - this will be a large part of his range when he bets the flop IMO), A7s, TT-88, 55, 77, and his PFR is low enough for some percentage of JJ. when he 3 bets the flop, then 3-bets our turn raise after we've screamed overpair, I think we have to refine our read despite the fact that his initial flop bet would scream weakness if it came from an ABC tight player.

EDIT: I don't mean to say this guy isn't predictable or that he's particularly tricky or tough, rather, that a lot of the 'standard' lines around here would entail betting the flop with the top pair/middle pocket pair hands and save the stronger hands for checkraises. I'm not sure who plays like that and who doesn't, but that's what I've been reading. I'm not sure if this player follows that convention as well, or if he's thought about it enough that he takes this line with a set or something as well.

edit: you don't have a read on MP1. I'll leave all this out there anyways.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
No read on villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 10/20 KK
 

I don't have a read on the main villain in the hand guys, only on the SB.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

Bet/3-betting the turn is a sign of immense strength normally.

I'll agree that his flop line is a little odd and defining his hand range can be quite debatable but I think you need to know that he's a total maniac before you start capping the turn with an overpair.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

suited broadway, 55, 77, JJ is my read on him on flop when bet into. maybe AJ or KJ.

turn you throw out suited broadway, cap is only good if guy overplays tp but we dont know that.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

I'm calling down the turn 3-bet. His line is a bit odd, but maybe he has a read on you??? That you have gone from nit to uber aggro as of late.

3betting TPTK on the turn is rather aggro for most players. I'm fairly worried about a set at this point and think that this cap is rather spewy. He didn't even blink when you smooth called his flop 3bet and then popped his turn bet.

What do you do if he bets the river? If he c/r the river?

What range are you putting him on? I agree with what was said above that it has to be around 55, 77, JJ and MAYBE QQ-AA, AKs or AJs.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

Given the line you took, I think you need to call down after the turn 3-bet. You could be looking at JJ, 77, or less likely T9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Sure, it's tough to put someone on that exact range, but given the obvious strength you showed on the turn, and the fact that he doesn't care, is cause for slowing down here. With a read this would be easier, but I like to treat complete unknowns with some caution when they are aggro like this.

Also, I know this might be a bit weaker, but couldn't you also cap the flop and if he donks a safe turn, call down?

Re: 10/20 KK
 

Looks good so far. The only question is whether or not to raise the river if he fires again. I probably wouldn't. Even donkeys flop sets with JJ or have AA sometimes.

Wow SB is bad.

Edit: Just read the thread and everyone is advocating calling the 3bet. I dunno, I think we're beating this guy. But I just call the river like I said.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

I think you're ahead often enough to cap given what I can come up with for a range. JJ-99, AJc, QJc, JTc, and half strength 77.

The cap collects the max from flush draws while paying the same as calling down and makes folding the river easier given the particular card and donk action.

Re: 10/20 KK
 

I think you played your hand perfectly untill the turn. On the turn with the sb out of the picture i don't really think you have any reason to cap it. You just have to think about all the hands that have you beat, not to mention the fact that you have no read on the villain so you have no idea if he is solid, no idea if he likes to raise suited connectors or only plays big pairs and ak that way. You can't beat 69 (unlikely holding) 9 10 (also unlikely but more possible for him to raise something like 9 10 suited and go crazy on that flop). You also can't beat any set and if he is holding any of these hands YOU ARE DRAWING ABSOLUTELY DEAD (except for to a king if he has a set). I don't think that you can throw your hand away cause there are quite a few hands you can beat. kj,qj,aj,1010,qq but even if he has something like aj clubs he has a ton of outs to smash you on the river. The only reason that i would cap in on the turn would be trying to get a free showdown in position on the river, but if he bets at that point the pot is huge and you almost have to call,(almost if you cap and he bets on river i think you are almost for surely beat, all goes back to knowing your opponent which you don't, and that makes a sticky situation).

Bottom line is that the best play is to just call on the turn after the sb is out of picture and hope to either check behind on river for free showdown or call one more bet, thus costing the same as the cap on the turn, and protecting yourself from losing one more big bet to a monster.
just my humble opinion