$109s - QQ Hand
 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter

Button (t720)
SB (t970)
BB (t1380)
UTG (t1000)
UTG+1 (t950)
UTG+2 (t990)
MP1 (t1000)
Hero (t1000)
MP3 (t1000)
CO (t990)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t45</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t45, Hero calls t45, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, UTG calls t30.

Flop: (t205) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t95</font>, Hero calls t95, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t250</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero ???

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

Not worth it too call or raise, very probable he has a nine or set of threes. I would fold. Too early in my opinion.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

It looks like a checkraise to milk you and the initial bettor. Tens or jacks would at least bet the pot fearing an overcard on the turn. I would probably would have reraised to 175 before the flop but seeing his action on the flop I think its a fold.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

What kinds of hand ranges are you putting your opponents on here?

I have a hard time on putting someone on trips or a flopped a boat. It would be very surprising if someone is raising or calling 3bb raise w/ A9, K9, Q9s, etc. The bet by MP1 is &lt; 1/2 pot so it seems someone is taking a stab at this pot. I don't like your flat call, raising obviously gives you position and very likely take down the pot. UTG would have raised w/ AA or KK or at least had an oppurtunity to re-raise w/ such hands and MP1 has a chance to raise PF. With this deduction I think the only hand you are behind is 33 here.

poke holes at my logic or lack thereof.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

Firstly, I reraise preflop, but I'd like to take some time to think about just calling. It may have its advantages.

On the flop, the raise by UTG after limp-calling preflop looks so much like 55-88, TT. I would play in a way that extracts the most from this type of hand. That depends a lot on the opponent

A reraise right now will scare a good opponent off of his underpair, but many overcards could hit the turn and scare him off anyway.

On second thought, since you have position, and may not get much more out of his underpair, you may just want to call and try to win a small pot. If an overcard comes and he still is playing very strongly, that kills my theory about his underpair, and you may be able to get away from the hand against trips or a boat.

I rambled. I'll respond again later.

I\'m Stupid
 

[ QUOTE ]
Firstly, I reraise preflop, but I'd like to take some time to think about just calling. It may have its advantages.

On the flop, the raise by UTG after limp-calling preflop looks so much like 55-88, TT. I would play in a way that extracts the most from this type of hand. That depends a lot on the opponent

A reraise right now will scare a good opponent off of his underpair, but many overcards could hit the turn and scare him off anyway.

On second thought, since you have position, and may not get much more out of his underpair, you may just want to call and try to win a small pot. If an overcard comes and he still is playing very strongly, that kills my theory about his underpair, and you may be able to get away from the hand against trips or a boat.

I rambled. I'll respond again later.

[/ QUOTE ]

PLEASE DISREGARD THIS POST.

I changed my mind, mostly because I realized that UTG checkraised (it appears from my post that I noticed that, but I didn't) rather than just raised. He would be much less inclined to flat call the flop bet here with a big hand because he can't act after the two of you on the turn, where you might check behind.

This now looks like he has trips or a boat, and I think I'd fold.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

I really don't like the call preflop. The raise to 45 could mean anything, so I'd make it 100 and see what happens. You can easily lay down QQ if someone comes over the top of your reraise. Maybe you were trying to keep the pot small, but that isn't going to happen either way, so just pump it.

On the flop, I'd raise that weak flop bet just to see if anyone has a 9.

Normally, I don't mind the idea of letting someone else bet the hand for me, but the 95 bet is garbage and the pot is really big already.

Whatever, you called. The checkraise to 250 against 2 players is pretty damn scary. I'd probably lay it down and hope he doesn't show TT.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

Wow, someone who plays QQ pf weaker than me.

I'de probably fold on the flop knowing that I'm laying down the best hand sometimes. I haven't run any numbers, but you aren't too far invested and I bet that you don't stack up too well against his range. Many players are weak passive and wouldn't raise there with something like 77.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

I think I'd min raise the flop because then you know almost for sure whether you are beaten if someone suddenly check raises you, as opposed to guessing. If the original bettor to 95 raises you, then I'd probably be willing to put all my chips in.

Basically min raising shuts out everyone the large majority of the time unless they have QQ beat, except for the 95 chip bettor.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

There are advantages and disadvantages of not reraising QQ this hands shows one of the disadvantages. It is unfortunate that you hit a weird flop, and you have to fold because you are probably beat, but if you folded the flop, not a poorly played hand.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

Go Broke w/ur "F'ing" QQ...Be a man about &amp; stop ur sniveling...These people that keep trying to get better bug the pluperfectfuck outa me...Chistsakes = Ask Yugo / he doesn't know anything...Hansome young people that are going to succeed also bother me...ALOT [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

edit: call "NonStop" (collect) I'm sure he has an opinion; or three thousand+

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

edit: call "NonStop" (collect) I'm sure he has an opinion; or three thousand+

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahahaha

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

My gut tells me pair here (88-AA, except 99) or AK/AQ. Pre-flop KK or AA wouldn't want that many people calling cheaply (although they're both still possibilities). On the flop, UTG pulled the trigger a little earlier and a little higher than I would think a 9 (and definitely two 3s) would want to, especially with two, potentially three other players and a ragged board. He would want action with those hands. I probably check call (trying to induce a bluff for the times when he does only have a small pair or AK). I would probably lose my stack here if he does have a nine or KK/AA for all the times you're beating him. My $.02

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

Unarmed, preflop strategy question.

When you play the ladies this way preflop, what is your general plan of attack postflop? I know you are a very thoughtful pokerplayer. So when you just called, I'm sure you must have had a plan of attack postflop. Do you care to discuss?

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

why no PF raise?

why no flop raise?


given the above, i most likely fold here....one of these guys has got that 9 or KK or AA enuff times to make me vomit and pass on this hand

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd min raise the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

very gangster

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd min raise the flop because then you know almost for sure whether you are beaten if someone suddenly check raises you, as opposed to guessing. If the original bettor to 95 raises you, then I'd probably be willing to put all my chips in.

Basically min raising shuts out everyone the large majority of the time unless they have QQ beat, except for the 95 chip bettor.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree w/ this, especially the second paragraph. Playing QQ like this PF is difficult when a flop like this hits. does the guy betting 95 have a lower pocket pair or is he ahead? I stopped playing QQ this way after a few similar situations.

Here, since the PF set up this tough decision, I fold here probably. I might call though and try to play it cheap from there. Raising is the most risky play in my opinion and I think the worst option of the 3.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think I'd min raise the flop because then you know almost for sure whether you are beaten if someone suddenly check raises you, as opposed to guessing. If the original bettor to 95 raises you, then I'd probably be willing to put all my chips in.

Basically min raising shuts out everyone the large majority of the time unless they have QQ beat, except for the 95 chip bettor.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree w/ this, especially the second paragraph. Playing QQ like this PF is difficult when a flop like this hits. does the guy betting 95 have a lower pocket pair or is he ahead? I stopped playing QQ this way after a few similar situations.

Here, since the PF set up this tough decision, I fold here probably. I might call though and try to play it cheap from there. Raising is the most risky play in my opinion and I think the worst option of the 3.

[/ QUOTE ]


Very confused why you claim to agree with my post yet say that raising (and note that I said I'd make a small raise) is the worst possible option!

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

No likey the preflop cold call. I'd re-raise PF. Give the cold call, I'd raise the flop. The check-raise after a limp/call looks like a medium to small pocket pair or perhaps T9s. You're either way ahead or way behind. Seems less likely that he has a pocket pair other than threes as there was a bet and a call prior to his check-raise and if he didn't have a big hand he'd be afraid of the caller. So, I think the right play is a fold.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

Thoughts:

Preflop: I don't reraise because:

- I don't want some tard repopping me with AK
- I can get away from ace high flops cheaper
- I can attack c-bets from strong aces on all unders flops
- I allow JJ/TT to think they are good on all unders flops (key point, IMO)

Flop: I'm good here most of the time. I flat call the weak bet to see if PF raiser is sandbagging AA/KK. UTG raising is completely unexpected. Folded to me. Great.

He has A9/K9 or TT/JJ the bulk of the time, and 55-88 some of the time. I don't really know what sort of percentages to tag on these possibilities though. As many of you know, I have a bad habit of fearing the worst, and making folds based on what exact hand he's most likely to have, even if that hand represents just 20% of his range.

So anyway, I think Jman's comments (before he told us to disregard them) are great. I like a flat call here. Hopefully no-one wants to re-raise/push here, so I'll just ignore that option. Folding gets more attractive the stronger MP1's initial bet is. As it played out, it was pretty damn weak, so UTG can have a wide range here.

If the turn is an ace and he bets out, I will fold, because I could easily be holding a stubborn AJ/AQ from his perspective.
If the turn blanks and he bets, I'll call if he's not pot committed, and push if he is. There's no point in just calling if he's pot committed, because I'm calling any river anyway so I should get the money in now against JJ/TT.
If the turn blanks and he checks, I think I check behind to try and induce a river call/bet from JJ down, and save some money against a stupidly played 9.

Anyway, I think the inital flop call is probably the error here. If MP1's bet wasn't so frigging weak, I wouldn't have to worry about UTG having a wide range, and I wouldn't feel like such a pussy for folding this, meaning none of you would ever have seen this hand.

Skipper, does all of that make sense? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

While your reasons for not raising preflop are cogent, I don't like them at all.

1. The tard with AK: this is a pattern recognition thing. AK doesn't raise to 45 UTG+1 very often. That's a tentative raise, and most donks don't play AK tentatively. I see min-raises with it, and over-raises with it. But a less than pot-sized raise from AK there is not something that a great player, nor a poor player will do too often. I'd scratch that fear from your list. It's just not a common betting pattern, not by a longshot.

2. Knowing how to get away from ace-high flops is much different than planning to get away from an ace-high flop. An ace is coming on a random flop less than a fourth of the time, and it's much less than that if there's one or more out. So why plan so heavily on this situation and why convince yourself you'll fold before you define some hands? The key to playing an ace-high flop with an underpair is getting a read on the ace. You can do this with both preflop and post flop pot manipulation. You have a little more work to do here preflop, and a hell of a lot more work before you resign yourself to folding to an ace-high board.

3. C-bets come from players who have betting impetus. If you take betting impetus preflop, you almost eliminate the c-bet. So, just change the point in time where you charge your opponent for overplaying his ace: instead of sticking his c-bet up his ass, you can charge him preflop and let him just give up post flop.

4. There isn't any betting sequence possible that would allow somebody to still have chips on the flop and not believe their JJ/TT is good on a baby board. Have you ever seen how pretty JJ is?

So, your preflop call is highly sub-optimal here in my opinion. In fact, I would say that you turn this hand into a negative EV hand playing it this way... and if you are playing QQ for a loss, you are doing it wrong.

Re-raising is a must here preflop. The amount of the re-raise is a pretty interesting discussion, too, and I think the correct amount lies in a very narrow range.

Irieguy

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

Re-raising is a must here preflop. The amount of the re-raise is a pretty interesting discussion, too, and I think the correct amount lies in a very narrow range.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take a shot. 120.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

&lt;&lt;Re-raising is a must here preflop. The amount of the re-raise is a pretty interesting discussion, too, and I think the correct amount lies in a very narrow range.&gt;&gt;&gt;

I believe I would raise this too. Here is where we are pre-flop again:
&lt;&lt;Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q, Q.
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 raises to t45, 1 fold, MP1 calls t45, Hero ?????&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
The pot at this point is sitting at t130, with a couple of players already committed for t45 and still 5 more players to act after your play. I would think we would like to have maybe one caller at this point, but really no more. How does a raise up to t150 sound? Then I guess the next question would be what happens if the initial raiser or first caller of t45 decides to push? Abandon the queens, I assume?
Les

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

Man, I like calling with QQ sometimes as well but smarter people are saying its a mistake, so it probably is. ZeeJustin listed the benefits of calling with QQ in a thread, but maybe that was in relation to deeper stacks in a MTT and not applicable to sitngos.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

FWIW I think calling with QQ is fine here.

(Of course raising is perfectly fine too!)

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

I was in the midst of writing a response, but Irie pretty much covered it.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

Anything u say is worth a lot actually.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

What would you usually do?

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

I'm just going to chime in and say that the Unarmed/Irie threads have consistently been some of the best on this forum lately.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

To raise or not to raise ... I will raise here 90% of the time (I like to vary my play which accounts for the other 10%).

I say the right amount is about 175. The worst thing you can do here IMO is make a wimpy raise that gets called in several places. One caller max is what I want here.

Interesting arguments for just calling though, Unarmed I love your posts, you always make me feel like I should be thinking more and surely that's a good thing. TY. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

I haven't read the other responses.

How come you didn't reraise preflop. You have somebody squeezed in the middle and you can define your hand. I would much rather find out if UTG+1 has AA/KK by investing 150 now than investing my stack on a 9 high flop. Reraising will make your hand a lot easier to play I think.

I think you can fold after UTG C/r the flop. There is a small chance you are ahead, but I don't think you will be able to find out without putting your whole stack in.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
What would you usually do?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd usually raise, but I don't think calling is so bad, and I've definitely done so in similar situations.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't like the call preflop. The raise to 45 could mean anything, so I'd make it 100 and see what happens. You can easily lay down QQ if someone comes over the top of your reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

barf

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever seen how pretty JJ is?


[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

As being a bad player for myself and on the 109 still are enough bad players hanging around I would concern the following thinking for the UTG-player as quite reasonable too (just to point out the opposite of fearing boats, trips, AA and KK):

He played a hand like a small pair or AJ+s. He saw the third player trying to steal, he saw you (with the same original plan of representing the 9) calling his steal-attempt. Then he remembered a chapter of Harrington 1 or 2 - being sure that player 3 sandwiched will fold to his raise and hoping to take the pot right there what might work out against every non-made holding from you.
If you put these hands to his range then I think calling is mandatory and just wait and see how turn and river is going on.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

i'd fold this flop at this point...

however, i think if u had reraised pf (100-150), then you could discount a9 and 33 on the flop and figure yourself for the best hand now (unless u hit rockets or kings)

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

Wait... I can re-raise QQ preflop? WAHOO!
Ok its on now!!

Seriously though, I agree with everone that this has to be re-popped to 130-150 pre-flop. If I don't re-raise I'll end up with a multiway pot due to the cascading pot odds. If he had raised to 90 or something I think a flat call is better, as I don't have to worry about multiple callers, and a raise to 90 generally doesn't want action, so I think my #4 point in the earlier reply is more valid. Must stop going on auto-pilot preflop...

Anyway, if anyone wants to give their thought process (generally speaking) for deciding whether to re-raise with QQ preflop or not, I'd like to hear it. I recall raptor saying he was calling ay more often with QQ lately?

Oh and thanks for all the replies. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

This is one of those very read dependent plays. Reraise, then if it gets re-reraised, but not pushed, thats almost always a bad sign. If it's pushed, you need to know the pusher. If it's a don't risk chips in level one player, i think you can fold here, if it's an aggressive donk player, call, your almost always against AK or a smaller pair, and the guy doesn't want to have to figure out what to do on the flop.

Steve

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

I see and use this play a lot. Villian assumes initial bettor does not have trips and caps what appears to be a value raise. I put villian on 10-10 or 2 overcards. JJ would have most likely pushed preflop and anything higher would have hit a bigger bet PF to get heads up. I would push and at a minimum you would win this one 60%. This is 109's so I would doubt this to be a complete bluff on villians part but I would think I have him on a draw majority of the time or smaller pocket pair.

Re: $109s - QQ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of those very read dependent plays. Reraise, then if it gets re-reraised, but not pushed, thats almost always a bad sign. If it's pushed, you need to know the pusher. If it's a don't risk chips in level one player, i think you can fold here, if it's an aggressive donk player, call, your almost always against AK or a smaller pair, and the guy doesn't want to have to figure out what to do on the flop.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

Lacky makes a strategy post.

His transition to the dark side is almost complete.

Irieguy