60-120 hand 88
 

another one from a very good game at commerce. i have 88 and raise after someone limps. some cold calls behind me and the blinds call.

the flop is JJT rainbow. i bet and only the blinds call. they are a couple loose aggro hooligans.

turn is 9. checked to me and i check.

river is T. sb picks up his chips like he wants to bet but then says "okay, check". bb checks, i bet.

comments welcome.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

Standard disclaimer: I suck at limits above 20-40. (Some would say I suck at lower limits, too, but I choose to ignore those people.) But here goes nothing....

I assume you checked the turn because the loose aggro hooligans are the type who like to checkraise, and you're now open-ended and wouldn't mind seeing the river card for free. Seems okay to me.

Might as well bet the river. Probably your only chance to win (seeing as you're playing the board....). You'll fold to a raise...?

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

When the turn gets checked why not bet? Is it because they would checkraise the turn with nothing and you couldn't fold to since you picked up a str8 draw?

Only you can decide what the BB means by his comment, but once you check the turn you're liable to get called by a ton of hands, none of which you can beat.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

Interesting river decision. After your turn check, they know you don't have a jack. So you can bet that they'd value bet either a jack or a ten on the river. Once it gets checked to you, it sure looks like nobody has much of anything. Unfortunately, their not much of anything probably beats your not much of anything, and at best you chop three ways if you check.

Now, what can you make them fold? Would they fold an ace? I doubt it. I think a loose player is going to look you up with a hand like a weak suited ace after you show weakness by checing the turn. Would they play a hand like K7s or Q3s? Are they really that loose?

So it seems to me that you don't have too much hope of folding a better hand, and the best you can hope for is to knock them out when you would have chopped three ways. Then again, they're aggressive, so you are risking your 1/3 as well to a bluff raise.

All told, I think the reward isn't worth the risk. You're right to suspect weakness, but they are likely just strong enough to keep you from stealing this pot from under their noses.

my 2 cents.
Eric

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

I've decided to always bet when checked to on the river when my hand gets counterfeited. I've had two opponents both fold the last two times, so I'm way ahead of the game.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

But had you bet the turn?

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

Yes, both times.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

I think that doing that (or not in this case) makes all the difference.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

Would they call with ace high? If not then there might be enough combinations of hands for them both to fold to make this profitable. If they would call with ace high hands (which seems likely given their descriptions) then I don't think this will work often enough.

-Ezcheeze

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

[ QUOTE ]

river is T. sb picks up his chips like he wants to bet but then says "okay, check". bb checks, i bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

good bet. in my games sb is almost always folding to a bet after making that move.

--turnipmonster

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

Am I way off here, or is the preflop raise questionable? In a game where you're not likely to successfully isolate the EP limper (and it sounds like it isn't), I hate playing middle PPs for multiple bets out of position in a multi-way pot. I may be way off on this as well, but in some ways I'd almost rather have an EP raiser and then 3-bet with 88, since that's far more likely to get it HU.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

[ QUOTE ]
river is T. sb picks up his chips like he wants to bet but then says "okay, check". bb checks, i bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
as long as they don't have A, u should be "good"

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

[ QUOTE ]
Am I way off here, or is the preflop raise questionable? In a game where you're not likely to successfully isolate the EP limper (and it sounds like it isn't), I hate playing middle PPs for multiple bets out of position in a multi-way pot. I may be way off on this as well, but in some ways I'd almost rather have an EP raiser and then 3-bet with 88, since that's far more likely to get it HU.

[/ QUOTE ]

while you are right for most people (including myself), a highly-skilled player like mike l. can and probably should push every +EV situation, such as this one, because of their far superior post-flop plays.

btw i am not kissing up or boasting for mike, we have never met, or spoken. my comments are purely based on his posts on 2+2.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

I would have bet the turn and river. You have some outs. Now, if called on the turn, you might get a better read on your opponent.

The river card, however, makes a bet mandatory.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

Okay, let me guess. First gut folded a straight second guy called with A high. First guy went on tilt. No, wait you said they were “a couple loose aggro hooligans.” First guy check-raised, second guy called, you folded, first guy mucked. No? How about, first guy check-raised, second guy re-raised, you mucked, first guy called, second guy mucked?

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

hi mike

you win. the SB is scary though. what a bet.

results and some comments
 

i was pretty surprised when both players groaned when i bet and mucked. there was some mumbling about A high is good and i took it down. so i guess my bet was bad? or good? or the turn was bad? or good?

preflop i limp w/ 88 in smaller games but i like to raise preflop w/ it in bigger games because you have more of a chance of a player trying to isolate 3 bet you w/ a smaller pair or of getting paid off by A high all the way. plus the tone of the game is generally more aggro so it blends in nicely just to openraise w/ it. it's pretty irritating to limp w/ it and have someone raise behind you because your limp looked weak, and then have someone reraise because they knew the raiser was just isolating. so i like to raise w/ it playing 40 or higher usually.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

The guy reaching for his chips is pretty standard for "he doesent want you to bet". So you dissapointed him by betting. Anytime you can dissapoint your opposition its generally good I think. Also I think the fact you did not bet the turn makes this whole thing work. Lets say you bet the turn one of them raises - one folds - you call - and miss - then he bets into you on the river. If you played agressively on the turn you would make him play correctly on the following streets possibly. By checking behind the pot is small - and since both of these guys you say are loose aggro - and neither of them bet the whole time, its very likely they will fold here and just let the smallish pot go. Anyhow - I like your line alot. The guy reaching for his checks is in several videos along with caros tell book. He doesen't want you to bet clearly...

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

I like it. I don't know if you won or lost this hand but when people grab their chips and then say check, they usually have squat.

Re: 60-120 hand 88
 

"He doesen't want you to bet clearly...'

yeah i knew that. i love tells.