Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

I've seen several posters recommend raising pocket 9's in EP with a limper in a small stakes full ring game. My usual standard stops at TT in EP. I am more interested in seeing a cheap flop unless the table is very tight and I expect it to get folded around. If its that tight then utg will usually have overcards. I would rather try to make a low investment, get callers then win a big pot. Please inform me on:

1. Why you raise.
2. Circumstances to make it right or wrong.
3. How do you proceed with a multiway pot on the flop when over cards are present.

Thread advocating raising with 99

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

I raise pretty much everytime

1.You probably have the best hand and you want to raise for value.

2.I raise it at pretty much every table, I really dont see the case for limping, except maybe for deception once in a while but at most low limit tables no one is paying attention anyway

3.extremely situational and based on players, maybe post a few examples

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

i raise 99+ EP every time. limper or not.

1. value; knock out small overcards.
2. you def dont want to limp in with multiple LAGs behind you. you'll get raised and re-raised. then you'd probably have to fold in most cases. which sucks. i can't think of a reason to limp in.
3. bet until told otherwise, with passive players. proceed with caution with aggressive players. it depends.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

Personally, I advocate both raising and limping some fraction of the time. I think the key is to achieve 1, 2, 5+ opponents, then play accordingly. Without any knowledge of my opponents, I usually limp EP here and if it is not raised behind me, then I presume no one else has TT+ and play accordingly. In multiway pot (>=3 opponents) and more than one overcard, I check fold under usual circumstances. With only one overcard I will usually bet to see where I stand unless there are 4 or more oppnents. At my level: 2/4 and equivalent BM limits, people love any two cards that add to twenty.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
raise pretty much everytime

1.You probably have the best hand and you want to raise for value.

2.I raise it at pretty much every table, I really dont see the case for limping, except maybe for deception once in a while once in a while but at most low limit tables no one is paying attention anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still thinking this and others ideas thru. I see two types of tables in small stakes.

1. Loose where any raise will get a couple cold calls, the blind(s) and the limper. Thus I now have invested an extra bet to have a multiway pot where 20 of the 50 cards left will be dangerous to me. These kind of players will call down with any TP and even middle or bottom.
If I hit my set I may have limited the action because they fear a big hand already.

2. Tight. I get most to fold. Well I can usually pick up this pot but its a lot less than a big multiway that I can raise, ck raise, 3bet etc the TP, 2pair, draws. If I miss it only cost me 1sb. I can also spew a lot of chips trying to push out a better hand and fail.

[ QUOTE ]
3.extremely situational and based on players, maybe post a few examples

[/ QUOTE ]

I linked the thread that led me to this post.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

"1. Loose where any raise will get a couple cold calls, the blind(s) and the limper. Thus I now have invested an extra bet to have a multiway pot where 20 of the 50 cards left will be dangerous to me. These kind of players will call down with any TP and even middle or bottom.
If I hit my set I may have limited the action because they fear a big hand already.

2. Tight. I get most to fold. Well I can usually pick up this pot but its a lot less than a big multiway that I can raise, ck raise, 3bet etc the TP, 2pair, draws. If I miss it only cost me 1sb. I can also spew a lot of chips trying to push out a better hand and fail."

1) I see that you play 2/4. If you hit your set, it is not true in general that you will not get action. If you get 5 callers to your raise then this is perfect. Some will get a peice of the flop some will have overs, and with the bigger pot, they will hang around for more. If you expect 5 callers to your EP raise, then I say raise 99 a lot, if not always.

2) You should be happy with this result, too, as it is profitable. 99 holds up well against 1, 2 opponents. Better to win little than lose big.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

please explain why you'd want to raise if you want 5 callers. i would think that if you're expecting 5+ callers, you'd want to limp, though raising is not a bad play. 99s wouldnt' play so well against 5+ cold callers, no matter how loose they are IMO...

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

Careful, that's not what I said. If my goal is 5 callers, then I limp. But, if I believe that my raise will get 5 callers, then I will do so because whether limping or raising, geting 5 callers while holding 99 is +EV. I am drawing to a set in this case.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Better to win little than lose big.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous. If 80% of the time I win 3 BB or 10% of the time I win 25 BB which is better?

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) I see that you play 2/4. If you hit your set, it is not true in general that you will not get action. If you get 5 callers to your raise then this is perfect. Some will get a peice of the flop some will have overs, and with the bigger pot, they will hang around for more. If you expect 5 callers to your EP raise, then I say raise 99 a lot, if not always.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I usually play 6/12 10/20 live 5/10 online. that was another poster. I was using the thread to point out those who recommended raising preflop (although they haven't commented on this one).

[ QUOTE ]
2) You should be happy with this result, too, as it is profitable. 99 holds up well against 1, 2 opponents. Better to win little than lose big.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am okay with this but not happy. the difference could be 5 to 10 BB.

[ QUOTE ]
please explain why you'd want to raise if you want 5 callers. i would think that if you're expecting 5+ callers, you'd want to limp, though raising is not a bad play. 99s wouldnt' play so well against 5+ cold callers, no matter how loose they are IMO...

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
Better to win little than lose big.




This is ridiculous. If 80% of the time I win 3 BB and 10% of the time I win 25 BB which is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!

I have stated my reasoning for limping 99 in a full ring and have not closed the door to raising but have not figured out why so many are advising it as a general rule. I want to better understand this adivice being given and see what I am missing.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Better to win little than lose big.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous. If 80% of the time I win 3 BB and 10% of the time I win 25 BB which is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

WTFBBQ, Jason? You are better than this, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misread/didn't read my posts. This sentence has a specific context.

OP was lamenting the possibility of raising with 99, getting it short handed, then winning, as opposed to raising 99, getting many opponents, and winning. I'm simply advising one to be happy winning a modest pot here. Disagree?

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Careful, that's not what I said. If my goal is 5 callers, then I limp. But, if I believe that my raise will get 5 callers, then I will do so because whether limping or raising, geting 5 callers while holding 99 is +EV. I am drawing to a set in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

I reread your post as requested. Is 99 +EV here?

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

Assume you will need a set to win; the odds of flopping one are ~7:1. but when you get the set, you will usually win so even though you are not getting 7 opponents, one of the 5 should catch a good enough second place hand that will pay you off in later rounds, thereby giving you sufficient implied odds. So it's +EV

Additionally, you can win without flopping a set.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Additionally, you can win without flopping a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not often in a multipot.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

I agree; that's why I left it outside the explanation of why I thought it was +EV. The situation does arrive, though, such as a rag flop especially when you have the odds to stick around for a turn card.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

ok i did not state it clearly i guess... my question is:

why would you want to raise if you believe your raise will get 5 callers? if you believe you're getting callers behind you, then ur raising for value. i agree that raising is +EV play also but isn't limping the better play?

if you limp (when you believe you'll get 5 callers behind you):
1. you can mask your set when you do hit it.
2. you save money if you dont. as 99 do not play well against 5 cold callers.

i generally do NOT want to draw to a set... hence my raise. i raise to knock the weak overcards out which would increase the 99's showdown value. am i mistaken?

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

I have a hypotheses; In a loose game where you can expect 3-5 CC'ers, I think raising loses money unless you play extremely well post flop

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a hypotheses; In a loose game where you can expect 3-5 CC'ers, I think raising loses money unless you play extremely well post flop

[/ QUOTE ]

i would think it still makes money. just not as much as limping.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

I'm currently reading "Small Stakes Hold'em"(Miller, Sklansky, Malmuth), and the authors seem to struggle with your question too. In their discussion of medium pairs(99, 88, and 77), the authors say,

[ QUOTE ]
From early position you should usually limp in.(p.66)

[/ QUOTE ]
They say you either want to play against 2 or 3 players or 5 or more players. Against 2 or 3 players an unimproved pair can win. Against 5 or more players, you are hopping to hit a set and win a big pot. It's approximately 7:1 against hitting a set on the flop, so you have to have enough players to be able to extract more than 7 times your preflop call when you make your set. They recommend only raising with medium pairs when you are in late position and there is exactly one limper ahead of you.

However, in their preflop charts where they recommend the proper action, the author's say to raise with 99 in middle or late postion in a tight game(p. 80) and raise with 99 in early position in a loose game(p. 82).

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to raise if you believe your raise will get 5 callers?

[/ QUOTE ]
As far as I can tell, you wouldn't. Not only do you lose more money when you don't hit a set, but since you also need more than a 7:1 payoff when you do hit a set, raising means you need to extract more bets from your opponents to reach that hurdle. If you call, say, $3 and get 5 other callers, you still need 3 additional $3 bets to make the hand profitable($3 to 5x$3 + 3x$3 = $3 to $24 = 1:8). If you raise to $6 and get 5 callers, then you need 6 additional $3 bets to make the hand profitable($6 to 5x$6 + 6x$3 = $6 to $48 = 1:8).

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm currently reading "Small Stakes Hold'em"(Miller, Sklansky, Malmuth), and the authors seem to struggle with your question too. In their discussion of medium pairs(99, 88, and 77), the authors say,

[ QUOTE ]
From early position you should usually limp in.(p.66)

[/ QUOTE ]
They say you either want to play against 2 or 3 players or 5 or more players. Against 2 or 3 players an unimproved pair can win. Against 5 or more players, you are hopping to hit a set and win a big pot. It's approximately 7:1 against hitting a set on the flop, so you have to have enough players to be able to extract more than 7 times your preflop call when you make your set. They recommend only raising with medium pairs when you are in late position and there is exactly one limper ahead of you.

However, in their preflop charts where they recommend the proper action, the author's say to raise with 99 in middle or late postion in a tight game(p. 80) and raise with 99 in early position in a loose game(p. 82).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly my understanding. This is why I question all of the posters who have advocated a raise in EP. They give the advice as if it is obvious. I am open to learning so I will not dismiss the idea with out hearing their points.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

I treat 9-9 as I would 5-5 and up, for the most part. If I hit a set with them, I usually win a decent pot, if I don't, I lose. I'm pretty new, and still working on various way to play different hands, but I don't like to raise these types of pocket pairs in EP. Mainly, due to the 7:1 ratio of flopping the set. It's very hard for me to call any type of bet with overcards on the board, when I miss a flop such as this. If I was a better, more experienced player (especially after the flop) I'd probably raise more. I think I get better overall results just limping, not only because I'm saving a raise 6 of 7 times, but also because when I do hit the set, many players with TP will put me on some type of draw, because I didn't raise, and oftentimes that leads to them betting in order to push me out. Remember, I suck, so don't listen to me.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

Warren, I read a lot of your posts and respect your knowledge, so please explain this a bit further. I agree sets win most of the time, obviously, but I question the thought that winning even without flopping the set off sets the hands that lose, even when you flop a set. I don't have any numbers, and hope someone does. Basically, I feel that the amount I win when a hand like 9-9 does not hit the set is less than the amount I lose when my set does not win. When a set loses, I'm usually going to have a pretty hefty amount of cash in the pot, because usually a set loser is due to a river card, and I was leading until then. The few hands I win without hitting the set are going to be mostly puny pots, because I can't really bet heavily with a lame hand like 9-9 (based on the odds that there will be at least one overcard on the flop). I'm trying to learn, so anything you can say to expand onthis would be appreciated.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]

1. Why you raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's a strong hand with solid preflop pot equity.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Circumstances to make it right or wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

If UTG and UTG+1 limp in front of you, and you are UTG+2 with 99, I don't mind a limp.

[ QUOTE ]

3. How do you proceed with a multiway pot on the flop when over cards are present.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play poker.

Will

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly my understanding.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, my only understanding at this point is that the authors need a better editor. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Have the author's weighed in on this apparent contradiction yet?

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

I can't quote formulas to back it up, but I believe this is one of those really close decisions. That's why I like to use this hand to mix up my game some, feel minimal harm either way long as you play it well post flop. So sometimes I raises ep here, and sometimes I limp it from the button.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My usual standard stops at TT in EP.

[/ QUOTE ]
Explain how raising 99 is significantly better or worse.

You should reason out that - it's not.

When you start discussing marginal situations like these you'll realize that the ones advocating raising this hand are: (A) pretty decent post-flop players, (B) who can maximize on the situation whether there's one caller or 8 callers and (C) are more willing to gamble it up, with a raise, on the small edge that they likely have over the remaining opponents.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you limp (when you believe you'll get 5 callers behind you):
1. you can mask your set when you do hit it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's say the flop is 9-8-2. Do you think a PF raise masks your hand more by limping or raising? Let's not forget that most SmallStakes players only think to raise "big cards". Against these players you're going to gain more deception by raising, as opposed to limping, hands like these in EP.

[ QUOTE ]
2. you save money if you dont. as 99 do not play well against 5 cold callers.

[/ QUOTE ]
99 plays well against any number of players. It's got reasonable showdown value as well as big hand potential.

There's nothing wrong with limping in and playing "no-set, no-bet". If you're not comfortable playing this hand in the way others have suggested - the value you're leaving on the table is minimal. That being said - the players, from the linked thread, advocating a raise in this spot are the ones that are going to "play poker" after the flop and make the PFR a +EV decision by outplaying their weak opponents after the flop. These are the players willing to take a few risks, when they know that they have the edge on their opponents skill-wise, and maximize their winrate.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

i would like to get something clear.

i raise 88+ EP almost every time. this example was to explain why i would limp when i expect 5+ callers.

but i would like to reiterate that 99 does NOT play well against 5 COLD callers. i emphasize 5 COLD CALLERS. ppl do not cold call with nothing. even at small stakes. if the over cards come, you're pretty much toast.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but i would like to reiterate that 99 does NOT play well against 5 COLD callers. i emphasize 5 COLD CALLERS. ppl do not cold call with nothing. even at small stakes. if the over cards come, you're pretty much toast.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's one situation - what about when overcards don't come? Or what about when you flop something like J-9-A? Are you telling me that 99 doesn't play well in a multiway pot in those scenarios?

Pocket pairs play well in multiway pots - it's essentially irrelevant if the pot is multiway from cold-callers or multiway from limpers. This is even more true as the limits decrease and loose players with wide cold-calling ranges are prevelant.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

Just glancing at this thread w/out putting too much into it...

It seems like many of the replys here:
a) Overvalue pocket pairs
b) Think 99 is similar to AA
c) Overvalue flopped over-pairs...even ones as weak as 99.

I limp 99. I limp 10 10. Hell - sometimes I limp J J.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

o sorry. that's of course if you dont hit your set. i guess there are three scenarios 99 will play well.
1. you hit ur set.
2. rag flops (uncoordinated)
3. you hit ur straight somehow. (not the sucker kind)

now even if the rag flops, the pot's so big that the overcards will not be chased off the pot (assuming the opponent is not super weak.) on top of that you will occasionally be up against bigger PP- probably more often that you'd like to be. i mean i agree it plays sorta well, but i def wouldn't feel too comfortable even after a favorable (nonset) flop. doesn't mean im not betting or raising though. i'm bettin/raising until you tell me otherwise.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

umm.. so ur saying u'd limp 99 TT JJ on the button with no limpers ahead of you? 1 limper? maniac on the loose? limping JJ regardless of EP or LP is just too passive.

on top of pushing your edges, it's also about mixing it up. you'd be surprised how much more action you'd get on your AA/KK if you mix it up a bit with your medium pockets. sure more action means more painful beats on huge pots but that's what we aim for no?

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

there are acutally alot of reasons to raise mid pocket pairs in EP. alot of time you have the best hand so you raise. you usually prefer less competition to the flop for your hand to hold up to the river so you raise. you want to eliminate as many people behind you as possible to minimize your OOP disadvantage so you raise. it disguises your hand to a certain extent, which is good for shania reasons. a mid pocket pair for me in EP is not an automatic raise, but most of the games inwhich i play tend to be those that i do raise. FWIW, i raise 77+ most of the time in EP. its all about game conditions and how you are viewed, really. you just have to play carefully after the flop and continue with properly faceted aggression to steal or win at showdown. and if i hit a set, watch the fireworks, baby!

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just glancing at this thread w/out putting too much into it...

It seems like many of the replys here:
a) Overvalue pocket pairs
b) Think 99 is similar to AA
c) Overvalue flopped over-pairs...even ones as weak as 99.

I limp 99. I limp 10 10. Hell - sometimes I limp J J.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to see your reasoning on this...

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
They say you either want to play against 2 or 3 players or 5 or more players.

[/ QUOTE ]
So does this also mean that 99 shouldn't be played against 4 opponents? Seems silly. Why not say, 99 can be played against any amount of opponents.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

You're right I over stated the idea of winning with a set. When I explained the 99 was +EV, etc. I based that entirely on flopping a set, then I added "Additionally one can win without flopping a set". What I meant was that there are other oddball situations that I was ignoreing, and that they are overall decent. oddball situations include: [852]r[9], [8TJ]r and [444].

I am guilty of not making it clear that I was putting little emphasis on the non-flopped-set scenarios.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So does this also mean that 99 shouldn't be played against 4 opponents? Seems silly. Why not say, 99 can be played against any amount of opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that there could be a certain number of opponents where 99 does not have a positive EV. A graph of the profitability curve could be at a minimum which is negative against 4 opponents, yet the profitability curve could turn upward into positive territory with 3 or fewer players as well as with 5 or more players.

Against 4 opponents the chances of 99 holding up unimproved are diminished while you may have a tough time collecting 8:1 odds on your preflop call in order to make flopping a set pay off.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just glancing at this thread w/out putting too much into it...

It seems like many of the replys here:
a) Overvalue pocket pairs
b) Think 99 is similar to AA
c) Overvalue flopped over-pairs...even ones as weak as 99.

I limp 99. I limp 10 10. Hell - sometimes I limp J J.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you play small stakes, and I assume you do posting in this forum, you are costing yourself money. Period. JJ, wow. I would never limp this hand in small stakes. no limpers, 1 limper, or 5 limpers, if nobody has raised when it gets to my JJ, I"M RAISING. And quite often, depending, I reraise with them as well. Limping JJ is playing scared. not gooot.

Re: Raise pocket 9\'s in EP?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but i would like to reiterate that 99 does NOT play well against 5 COLD callers. i emphasize 5 COLD CALLERS. ppl do not cold call with nothing. even at small stakes. if the over cards come, you're pretty much toast.

[/ QUOTE ]

A PP does play very well against 5 opponents (cold-callers or not) because, when you set, the pot is so big that they have odds to chase, giving you a bigger EV. In fact, if anything, the fact that they cold-called means you'll get *more* action.