I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Both hands, how is the flop check, and what do I do on the turn?

<u>Hand 1</u>
UTG is very LAG. Been running insanely hot and is up a lot on the day although I haven't been playing with him that much. Sat with him briefly on a few tables, though, over the course of the night.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

TWP ($411.60)
SB ($390)
BB ($400)
UTG ($409.30)
MP ($480.60)
CO ($394)

Preflop: TWP is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $4, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">TWP raises to $15</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $11.

Flop: ($36) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, TWP checks.

Turn: ($36) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $45</font>, <font color="#CC3333">TWP raises to $140</font>, UTG calls $349.30 (All-In), TWP...?

<u>Hand 2</u>
Villain in this one is more sane. He's only recently sat down, but he hasn't done anything out of line yet.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

UTG ($468.80)
MP ($87.95)
TWP ($394)
SB ($308.50)
BB ($570)

Preflop: TWP is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">TWP raises to $15</font>, SB (poster) calls $13, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($34) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, TWP checks.

Turn: ($34) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $32.3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">TWP raises to $100</font>, SB calls $261.20 (All-In), TWP...?

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

I gotta figure you call in hand 1.

I think I find a fold in hand 2 based on description. hes got to figure you might have AK and hands that beat AK also beats AT.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

call hand 1, fold hand 2

hand 1 looks like a bare Q maybe ...LAG range is huge, could even be JT ....limps 99 pre-flop? is he aggressive preflop?

hand 2 looks like he flopped it, hoping youd c-bet

then he pots turn?? and pushes once you show interest? looks a lot like KQ/KJ to me

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

I call hand 1 fold 2 for reasons previously stated. As an aside though, why no continuation bet in hand 1. Is this standard for you or is it just to mix it up. Just curious. Thx

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

I like the check on the flop in the first hand especially against this guy.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

because villain is very LAG and your flop continuation bet will likely be read for continuation bet and get check raised regardless of villain's holdings and you are put in to tough spot.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Hand 1: Call
Hand 2: Fold

I don't mind the check at all.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

I'm not speaking for TWP but the reason I like the check on the flop of the first hand is because villian is LAG. The flop isn't too continuation-bet-friendly. It seems pretty probable that a continuation bet will get raised here by a LAG. And when you get raised holding 88 on that flop it puts you in a bad spot. I like checking and seeing what he does and then playing it from there.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
because villain is very LAG and your flop continuation bet will likely be read for continuation bet and get check raised regardless of villain's holdings and you are put in to tough spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

not to mention checking behind gets you called on your turn/river bets by a lot of lower pockets

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Flop-check on hand 1 seems like the optimal line. You want another card off, and too likely that he'll play back at you or he simply has you crushed.

Are you wondering if a continuation bet helps you make a decision to call on the turn? If he flopped a boat or trips, you're seeing a turn as he's trapping with either hand, and once that 8 comes off, I don't see how you get away from it.

Second hand - I'd be surprised if he didn't have a boat the way it was played. I think this is a difficult hand not to lose a lot on (I think you have to raise the turn here). I don't see how a flop-check is anything but correct.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

i get stacked on first hand.
second hand why raise???

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Don't understand your question mark in hand 1? Why are you debating the call?

Hand 2 doesn't look like that jack bothers him one bit. If he is good and tricky I might call. If he is aggressive, I'm puking and calling. If he is tight and straightforward, I'm folding.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

6 max on button or co is standard raise. Looks like it was folded to TWP which can be a standard button raise with any 2.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Hand 1: TWP calls and laughs at the donks QT/QJ/KQ/etc. If he has Q9 or Q8, add him to your buddy list.

Hand 2: TWP drops about 50 f-bombs and folds.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

1 - call
2 - fold

What are you really contemplating on hand one? I must be missing something.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Hand 1: Easy call. What are you afraid of, quads? Villain could easily have JT or just be putting a play on you.

Hand 2: Bleh. I really hate this situation and it seems to come up a lot. Fold it.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

I think he means why raise the turn? I agree.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think he means why raise the turn? I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same. I can't think of what hand range this raise maximizes profit against, unless you are willing to call a push from AK/T9/Kx. Against hands WA or WB you, it likely costs you money compared to calling turn, calling river (since he gets a chance to fold his WB hand instead of firing again on the river with it).

I can see wanting to protect/get some money in when many river cards kill your action/kill your hand, though. Tough spot.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

I call both

What's up with everyone folding hand 2?

edit: seeing as I'm going against the crowd, I should probably add my reasoning

AK/AT seem just as likely as KQ/KJ. Both checked the flop becuase villian is an uber tricky pokah playa

Now the turn comes, TWP has shown incredible weakness by not continuation betting (which I do not think is necessarily a mistake) so he bets. IMO, because he bet full pot, it's even more likely that he now has AK/KT and is afraid of the mutliple draws. I would expect a smaller bet from a boat, to make sure all the draws call. Then when TWP raises, I expect an all-in from AK/KT always, and from KQ/KJ most of the time. There's a chance he flat-calls with a boat, because villian is an uber tricky pokah playa.

So now it's even more likely he has just trips. He could also have KK/QQ/JJ (maybe even T9), but given the 2.45 to 1 odds I think for about 1.5 seconds and call

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Hand 1 - nice, I call.

Hand 2 - I dont raise the turn, rather call, and call any river I guess. I would hate to raise the turn and have somebody go all-in on me, and not know where I stand ... oh ... thats what happened. I have reasonable odds to call, so I might end up calling and hating it.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Hand 1: I call. Flop check is good IMO.

hand 2: I think I like calling more than raising. Then calling again on the river- yes there are cards that kill the action (spades/clubs/K,Q,J), but villan may already have a FH. I think I am too lame to fold this, so I lose my money here.

hope it worked out for you.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call both

What's up with everyone folding hand 2?

edit: seeing as I'm going against the crowd, I should probably add my reasoning

AK/AT seem just as likely as KQ/KJ. Both checked the flop becuase villian is an uber tricky pokah playa

Now the turn comes, TWP has shown incredible weakness by not continuation betting (which I do not think is necessarily a mistake) so he bets. IMO, because he bet full pot, it's even more likely that he now has AK/KT and is afraid of the mutliple draws. I would expect a smaller bet from a boat, to make sure all the draws call. Then when TWP raises, I expect an all-in from AK/KT always, and from KQ/KJ most of the time. There's a chance he flat-calls with a boat, because villian is an uber tricky pokah playa.

So now it's even more likely he has just trips. He could also have KK/QQ/JJ (maybe even T9), but given the 2.45 to 1 odds I think for about 1.5 seconds and call

[/ QUOTE ]
This was my thinking. Also, I'm a fish. I don't see why people think he would bet pot/push with a lock hand like a full house. This action looks like a vulnerable hand to me.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

With the way you play, I don't see how you can even consider folding in either hand.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
With the way you play, I don't see how you can even consider folding in either hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
FWIW, I was on best behaviour last night after taking an absolute whalloping by LAGing it up the previous two days. Don't ask how much.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Even with that, the first one is a no-brainer. The second one would only be a fold if villain were deeper. You see something with a ten in it and no ace a ton of the time.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]

I call both

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Hand 1 - I call without hesitation.

Hand 2 - I call but with some reservation. I wouldn't be surprised to see AK or KT here.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Hand 1: Instacall and he's drawing dead with T7 for OESD.
Hadn 2: Delayed call and he has AK and gets no help.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Honestly, why even post hand 1?

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Hand 1 call and expect to lose sometimes to a Q9 or Q8 or 99, but I think villain has trip Qs without the boat often enough to make a call correct.

Hand 2 fold. A straight on this paired board just doesn't seem good enough for all your chips. The J seemed to help him, or he slow played the flop with a monter. So, QQ, JJ and AK are the likely hands. I don't think a good player would call your preflop raise with KJ or KQ out of position, but I suppose they are possible too, especially since this is 6-max and guys seem more willing to play hands like that oop from an LP preflop raiser. You only beat AK, and that hand has a couple of outs on the river. The other likely hands are killing you.

I think folding is better.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think folding is better.


[/ QUOTE ]

Given your call and results, I'd say that this is a perfect example of why I'm not so good at six-max.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like it was folded to TWP which can be a standard button raise with any 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very wide statement. To open with any two on the button, the folding equity has to be near perfect (they'll fold 2/3 of the time to a 3BB raise for example) or you have to be confident you're crushing your opponents postflop. Shania is not as valuable as most would like it to be against players who are giving you money (LAGs, fish, etc.).

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

I agree. Raising any two is a losing play.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, why even post hand 1?

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, because I wasn't sure about the flop check. I think I like it, but then what's my line if I don't hit an 8 on the turn. My plan was to call down since he's a psycho. What if he isn't a psycho? What if the psycho pushes? What if the turn is an ace?

This is why I posted hand 1.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Honestly, why even post hand 1?

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, because I wasn't sure about the flop check. I think I like it, but then what's my line if I don't hit an 8 on the turn. My plan was to call down since he's a psycho. What if he isn't a psycho? What if the psycho pushes? What if the turn is an ace?

This is why I posted hand 1.

[/ QUOTE ]
In that case, you should've stopped the post at your flop action. You can bet it sometimes, check it behind sometimes but once you spike your 8 on the turn, the hand plays itself.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

Fair enough. I thought that some people might advocate folding the turn, but I guess not. But I did try to stress the flop play in my title and first sentence of post. So...any thoughts on flop play?

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. I thought that some people might advocate folding the turn, but I guess not. But I did try to stress the flop play in my title and first sentence of post. So...any thoughts on flop play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am curious on everyone's thoughts on flop play too.

I seem to be checking behind on a lot of flops in situations where if I make a continuation bet, worse hands fold, and better hands call/raise. These two hands are good examples of that.

I think to myself why bet the flop, when I can call/bet the turn for the same price, and be closer to showdown?

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. I thought that some people might advocate folding the turn, but I guess not. But I did try to stress the flop play in my title and first sentence of post. So...any thoughts on flop play?

[/ QUOTE ]
Its a horrible flop for your hand vs. a LAG. You can't beat anything out there (you aren't even in great shape against JT with its 13 outs) and he's probably capable of representing something and betting (or checkraising or whatever) it on any and all streets. I don't really like the calldown plan due to the fact that almost every card in the deck scares you when you haven't taken the lead. I'd probably bet the flop and, if I got checkraised, I'd make my decision there as to whether or not I believed him. It'd be a tough spot, but I at least want to give him a chance to fold.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

So you want to guess for all your chips on a QQx flop with 88? I can't believe that will be more profitable than calling down a super LAG. My general plan is basically to check behind on paired flops around 95% of the time HU. Do you think that's terrible? I think it really helps me make a lot of money and save a lot of money.

Re: I check behind flop and get blasted
 

[ QUOTE ]
So you want to guess for all your chips on a QQx flop with 88? I can't believe that will be more profitable than calling down a super LAG. My general plan is basically to check behind on paired flops around 95% of the time HU. Do you think that's terrible? I think it really helps me make a lot of money and save a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Gah; I wrote a long reply, got an error posting it and now its gone. I'm on my way out the door so I won't be rewriting it now. Part of it was that I'm deciding on the flop, not necessarily 3betting it; just to make that clear. Had you bet the flop, what do you think he would've done with T7?