This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Stars $11. Blinds are 100/200/25. EP has 6600, EP+1 has 5000. Hero on button with 3700. Blinds will be 200/400 in 8 minutes.

EP has been open raising really light, about 2 or 3 times per orbit. Hardly anyone's defending their blinds.

EP opens 3x to 600. EP+1 (no reads) calls. Folded to hero (tight image) in button w/7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Hero pushes.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

I love the play. That's excellent poker right there.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

+EVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

worrrrrd [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Got called by KJo and lost, eh?

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Textbook squeeze play.

NH, regardless of the result.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

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Got called by KK and lost, eh?

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FYP.

It was EP+1. And for some reason he hesitated. I walked away with no regrets.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Yep.. Still an excellent play.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Good play just you bet too much, if you raise him lets say 1500, and he calls or raises you know he probably has something and has you beat badly. So next time don't bet as much but still raise. You don't have to risk all your chips in that sitauation.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

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<font color="orange"> Danny H. </font>
newbie


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I'll let this one go and pretend you never offered that advice.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Here is a polite response to your post, Danny, so as to give you an opportunity to learn from your mistake rather than flame you:

With 100/200/25 B/A, there is 750 in the pot before the action. A 600 bet and 600 call makes the pot 1950. If you bet 1500 there is 3450 in the pot and either player has to put in 900 to win 3450, giving about 3.5-1 pot odds, so almost any two are correct to call if they don't put you on AA. If EP calls, then there is 4350 to EP+1 or nearly 5-1 pot odds. You are getting called by any two there. Your raise has probably not chased out anyone, but you have invested almost half your stack with a very marginal hand.

By pushing he made the pot over 5000 and anyone else has to put in an additional 3000ish, therefore only getting 1.6-1 pot odds. He made this play based on reads and his own image, and needs to push to make the call difficult for anyone without a premium hand.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

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Good play just you bet too much, if you raise him lets say 1500, and he calls or raises you know he probably has something and has you beat badly. So next time don't bet as much but still raise. You don't have to risk all your chips in that sitauation.

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This makes no sense.

As I see it, the objective of this bet is to force the player to make a critical decision at that point - if the guy has anything LESS than KK (maybe QQ) he would fold to that bet.

The reason why you do it with 67s is because IF you do get called, then you have more live cards in the deck to help you win your hand.

Have I got that right? (Also a newbie here)

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a polite response to your post, Danny, so as to give you an opportunity to learn from your mistake rather than flame you:

With 100/200/25 B/A, there is 750 in the pot before the action. A 600 bet and 600 call makes the pot 1950. If you bet 1500 there is 3450 in the pot and either player has to put in 900 to win 3450, giving about 3.5-1 pot odds, so almost any two are correct to call if they don't put you on AA. If EP calls, then there is 4350 to EP+1 or nearly 5-1 pot odds. You are getting called by any two there. Your raise has probably not chased out anyone, but you have invested almost half your stack with a very marginal hand.

By pushing he made the pot over 5000 and anyone else has to put in an additional 3000ish, therefore only getting 1.6-1 pot odds. He made this play based on reads and his own image, and needs to push to make the call difficult for anyone without a premium hand.

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Excellent post.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a polite response to your post, Danny, so as to give you an opportunity to learn from your mistake rather than flame you:

With 100/200/25 B/A, there is 750 in the pot before the action. A 600 bet and 600 call makes the pot 1950. If you bet 1500 there is 3450 in the pot and either player has to put in 900 to win 3450, giving about 3.5-1 pot odds, so almost any two are correct to call if they don't put you on AA. If EP calls, then there is 4350 to EP+1 or nearly 5-1 pot odds. You are getting called by any two there. Your raise has probably not chased out anyone, but you have invested almost half your stack with a very marginal hand.

By pushing he made the pot over 5000 and anyone else has to put in an additional 3000ish, therefore only getting 1.6-1 pot odds. He made this play based on reads and his own image, and needs to push to make the call difficult for anyone without a premium hand.

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Can I just confirm that this is basically what I said, just without covering the actual math of the situation?

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here is a polite response to your post, Danny, so as to give you an opportunity to learn from your mistake rather than flame you:

With 100/200/25 B/A, there is 750 in the pot before the action. A 600 bet and 600 call makes the pot 1950. If you bet 1500 there is 3450 in the pot and either player has to put in 900 to win 3450, giving about 3.5-1 pot odds, so almost any two are correct to call if they don't put you on AA. If EP calls, then there is 4350 to EP+1 or nearly 5-1 pot odds. You are getting called by any two there. Your raise has probably not chased out anyone, but you have invested almost half your stack with a very marginal hand.

By pushing he made the pot over 5000 and anyone else has to put in an additional 3000ish, therefore only getting 1.6-1 pot odds. He made this play based on reads and his own image, and needs to push to make the call difficult for anyone without a premium hand.

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Can I just confirm that this is basically what I said, just without covering the actual math of the situation?

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pretty much. yes

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Well in Doyle Brunson's book he talks about this situation, about trying to catch something if a player is playing kings and aces and doesn't raise and you have a suited connector. He recommends just calling which is actually the play I would make. Possibly catch something then push, how if he is dead set on raising then 1500 is a nice number b/c its bigger than the pot but still not too much to where if he gets raised he can lay down the hand and still be in the tournament. I understand stealing blinds is important and with people not defending the blinds you can try to steal but going all in with 76s is not a good way to make a living. Of course he didn't want to be called, but I'd doubt few hands would call his 1500 and not his all-in. 76s is a hand I want to see a flop with. Then I can break somebody especially with a big pair and what appears to be rags on the flop. You may think I'm a newbie but I still understand the game or poker. I also understand that guys with smaller chip stacks shouldn't bluff at pots b/c when they do they don't have the chips to force the ace 6 and other bad hands out. So please if you still think I'm wrong...tell me where...because I'm all about getting better and if you think I'm wrong then please show me why.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Calling is terrible. The only way you can win a pot is if you hit the flop hard, picked up a draw, and the two big stacks missed completely (unlikely and not good poker IMO.)

Raising to 1500 is terrible. If he comes over the top, you're already priced in, because you're no worse than 3:1 against any possible two cards our opponent might be holding (unless it was 7-7, very unlikely), and you could be as narrow as a dog as 1.5:1. The only play worse than raising to 1500, is folding after the opponent moved all-in over the top of the 1500 raise. If your raise is flat called, and you miss your flop (likely), you're bigtime screwed with only a handful of BB's left.

Push all-in and your opponent can only call with A-K, A-A, K-K, Q-Q, one of four possible hands (maybe J-J is he sucks) and based upon the read of our villain and the image of our Hero.. Push all-in is the only play here. (well you could definently fold, but I think you're passing up a tremendous +ChipEV opportunity folding, and you're already down under 20 BB, you'll need to make this move sooner or later, this is the perfect spot.)

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

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<font color="orange"> Danny H. </font>
newbie


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I'll let this one go and pretend you never offered that advice.


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I'm sure he appreciates the mercy of one of the old timers who's been here 6 days longer than he has.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Sorry guys didn't read the ep+1 calls, that changes everything, now he either has to push or call. I go with call and hope I hit a flop and then can bust him. However pushing against a pocket pair above 7s put him at a more than 3:1 dog, against A Ko almost 3:2. Those are two logical hands one or both could have and although sometimes you have to be behind in a hand, I don't want to be in for all my chips in that situation.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

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Well in Doyle Brunson's book he talks about this situation, about trying to catch something if a player is playing kings and aces and doesn't raise and you have a suited connector. He recommends just calling which is actually the play I would make.

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This play is illustrating a move outlined in Harrington on Hold 'Em. Doyle does recommend getting in cheap (limping with other limpers or calling minimal raises) with suited connectors in late position, but calling in this situation is borderline because of the early position raise.

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Possibly catch something then push, how if he is dead set on raising then 1500 is a nice number b/c its bigger than the pot but still not too much to where if he gets raised he can lay down the hand and still be in the tournament.

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1500 in NOT bigger than the pot. See my math above. There is 1950 in the pot when it gets to him. Betting 1500 is how you might play this if YOU had AA or KK in LP against a raise and limp. Build the pot, but don't chase out a caller. In this situation he is STEALING the pot and does not want callers.

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I understand stealing blinds is important and with people not defending the blinds you can try to steal but going all in with 76s is not a good way to make a living. Of course he didn't want to be called, but I'd doubt few hands would call his 1500 and not his all-in.

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Again, please see my math above. The is a significant difference between 1500 and 3400 in this situation.

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76s is a hand I want to see a flop with. Then I can break somebody especially with a big pair and what appears to be rags on the flop. You may think I'm a newbie but I still understand the game or poker. I also understand that guys with smaller chip stacks shouldn't bluff at pots b/c when they do they don't have the chips to force the ace 6 and other bad hands out. So please if you still think I'm wrong...tell me where...because I'm all about getting better and if you think I'm wrong then please show me why.

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I need to check the time stamps on the posts (it took me a while to compose mine and there may have been posts in between), but another poster has also already pointed out that 3400 (or whatever the push size is, I've forgotten) is a significant portion of the other two player's stacks. 1500 is almost a mandatory pot-odds call. In this particular situation, he would have been better calling with his hand than betting 1500. 1500 is going to get a push from the KK and then probably have to call because he is pot-committed (1950+1500+3400=6850 with 1900 to call, or 3.6-1 pot odds).

In short, I highly recommend reading Harrington on Hold 'Em so as to understand the basis of the OP. It will answer all of the questions in your most recent response.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

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Well in Doyle Brunson's book he talks about this situation, about trying to catch something if a player is playing kings and aces and doesn't raise and you have a suited connector. He recommends just calling which is actually the play I would make.

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Calling with 76s with position to a loose raise and a call is a nice play to have in your arsenal, but only when the stacks are very deep. The thing about this play is that your first call is bad (meaning you are calling a 3xBB raise in a pot where you dont have 3xBB equity).

The reason you can make this play, is that on the flop, you are last to act, and they arent likely to put you on 76s. So, when you hit your hand (or a great draw), you are likely to win a big pot. When you miss the flop, you fold, and only lose 3xBB. So for this play to be profitable, you need the players in the hand, as well as yourself to have a lot of chips (implied odds).

An example of when I would do this is if the stack sizes were 3200, 3000, and I have 2200, and the raise is to 90 chips.

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Possibly catch something then push, how if he is dead set on raising then 1500 is a nice number b/c its bigger than the pot but still not too much to where if he gets raised he can lay down the hand and still be in the tournament.

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You need to brush up on pot odds. The original raiser and caller will be getting great odds to call with a very wide range of hands.

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Of course he didn't want to be called, but I'd doubt few hands would call his 1500 and not his all-in.

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This is just not true



Also, they point of this play is that we dont think that the original bet meant a lot. The player has been very liberal with his preflop raises. So we know this, we assume that the caller also knows this, making his range wider than usual as well. A raise after a raise and a call usually means a big hand, so both players will fold a very large % of their initial range getting only 1.6-1 on a call.

Also, super system usually is talking about very deep stacked play. You should read Harrington on Hold em

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Thx and I did amend my response but where do you get 1950+1500+3400...I see the 1500 for the bet and I get 1725 (600+600+200+100+9*25) for the pot, but where is the 3400.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

nice to see a flop with 76 and deep stacks.

with stacks not deep then no unless theres 4 people limping and no raises then you can throw 76 away to a single raise, no way you should flat call here.

+EVVVVVV move here

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

My bads: I did 9*50 (450) for the antes (correct=225 for 1725 pot)

I was pulling 3400 instead of 3700 from memory for Hero's stack size. The figure was villian's call of 1500 plus raise the rest of the stack (in correctly 1500+1900, which should be 1500+2200). This is because villian will get all his chips in before the flop with KK to put Hero to the test for the rest of his stack.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

One of the things that Harrington makes clear in HOH2 is that you need to have a read that your opponents are aggressive before making the squeeze play. You said you have no read on EP+1, so I think this is ill advised.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

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One of the things that Harrington makes clear in HOH2 is that you need to have a read that your opponents are aggressive before making the squeeze play. You said you have no read on EP+1, so I think this is ill advised.

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While it would be nice to have a read on EP+1, I don't think it is that critical here. What you are assuming here is that he has somewhat of a hand, but not great since he did not re-raise. Now the hero pushes, and the EP+1 guy is facing losing 3700 of his 5000 chips to what appears to be a monster that the hero is holding. If he is sitting there trapping with a big pair, that is just bad luck. In order to succeed in tourneys you cannot always be afraid that someone is trapping. You need to take risks and I cannot see a better opportunity to make a play for a pot than right here.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

Yea, you're not worried about the guy in ep+1 because limping behind someone with a marginal hand is reasonable, its really the first person you worry about having a high pocket pair. The other guy is likely to have possibly a low pocket pair or a hand like KQs-J10s which he can't call a raise like this with.

Is the squeeze play getting overused now?
 

Lately in online MTTs (mostly $20-$50 buyins) I'm seeing the squeeze play all the time. Whenever there is a PF raise (whether a LAG or not) and a caller - somebody in LP or in the blinds will make a substantial re-raise to try to take down the pot PF.

While this is a good play under certain circumstances - the fact that it is being overused and misapplied has made many players weary of the play and thus has prompted counter-measures like calling a PFR with AA/KK (as in this case) or calling a big-raise with less than premium hands because a re-raise after a raise and a call 'looks like a squeeze play'.

Any thoughts on this?

Re: Is the squeeze play getting overused now?
 

I play in this tournament (Stars 19:45 $10+1) every night and I don't see it that often.

Re: This is when you apply the squeeze play.
 

This is a squeeze play, not just a blind steal. You either have to fold 76s to a 3BB raise and one caller, or as in this case you push 3700 chips into the pot, which gives you maximum Folding Equity against the loose raiser and the caller.

You cannot bet 1500 with 76s because of the reasons already stated above. You give the raiser great pot odds if he had a decent hand, and if he calls well forget it, the caller is coming along because it will be too nice of a pot to get away from.

You are trying to put maximum pressure on the loose raiser here, because he will have one more person to act behind him even if he calls your all-in because of the caller, and will tend to fold his weak hand. The caller will then have to have a very strong hand to continue because you made your all in move with two people showing "strength" in front of you, so you must have a good hand, at least that is the perception you are going for.

This situation is clearly outlined in HOH as well. You like to make this move with two cards that are not too bad that could do well on the flop and not be dominated, so 72 is not the hand for this maneuver, but 76s, or T9s, PPs.

Re: Is the squeeze play getting overused now?
 

I honestly think the squeeze play was misapplied here. You have no read on EP+1 yet you're still willing to squeezing him? In HOH, he makes it very clear why he made the play he did. He knew Arieh was opening with marginal hands...which is the case in your situation, and he knew Raymer was calling with marginal hands, which you didn't. Maybe he is the type of player who is smooth calling a monster hoping to exactly the play you were looking for. I believe TJ calls it playing the hand "2nd hand low". It's essentially a counter to the squeeze play and if I've got Aces or Kings I'm going to smooth call a lot more often now, because so many people see the squeeze play as + EV. If I'm going to make a squeeze play, I have to have 95% confidence it's going to work. I need to see a fair amount of action at the table before I'm willing to put all of my chips in play for what is essentially a complete bluff.

Re: Is the squeeze play getting overused now?
 

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I honestly think the squeeze play was misapplied here. You have no read on EP+1 yet you're still willing to squeezing him? In HOH, he makes it very clear why he made the play he did. He knew Farha was opening with marginal hands...which is the case in your situation, and he knew Lester was calling with marginal hands, which you didn't. Maybe he is the type of player who is smooth calling a monster hoping to exactly the play you were looking for. I believe TJ calls it playing the hand "2nd hand low". It's essentially a counter to the squeeze play and if I've got Aces or Kings I'm going to smooth call a lot more often now, because so many people see the squeeze play as + EV. If I'm going to make a squeeze play, I have to have 95% confidence it's going to work. I need to see a fair amount of action at the table before I'm willing to put all of my chips in play for what is essentially a complete bluff.

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FYP, I think.

Re: Is the squeeze play getting overused now?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I honestly think the squeeze play was misapplied here. You have no read on EP+1 yet you're still willing to squeezing him? In HOH, he makes it very clear why he made the play he did. He knew Farha was opening with marginal hands...which is the case in your situation, and he knew Lester was calling with marginal hands, which you didn't. Maybe he is the type of player who is smooth calling a monster hoping to exactly the play you were looking for. I believe TJ calls it playing the hand "2nd hand low". It's essentially a counter to the squeeze play and if I've got Aces or Kings I'm going to smooth call a lot more often now, because so many people see the squeeze play as + EV. If I'm going to make a squeeze play, I have to have 95% confidence it's going to work. I need to see a fair amount of action at the table before I'm willing to put all of my chips in play for what is essentially a complete bluff.

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FYP, I think.

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nope. he was right. Harrington was talking abot his 62o bluff. ur talking about when he had KK and it looked like a squeeze and Lester thought it was a squeeze, which is why he stuck around with 77 (a play which people saw as questionable)

Re: Is the squeeze play getting overused now?
 

Good points; however, I think this play becomes +EV at a number much lower than 95%. In most cases your re-raise over the initial raiser and caller is going to be 1.5 to 2 times the pot size, so in the case where your re-raise is 2x the pot size you'll only need to 67% confident for this play to be +EV.

Re: Is the squeeze play getting overused now?
 

You are probably right, it does become + EV at a much lower confidence than 95%. However, my point is, if I'm putting all my chips in the middle on a squeeze play, I want to be highly confident it's going to work.

Of course, I used it last night in a low buy in tourny on Stars, made the proper reads...and got called by the original caller with 77. Can't put moves on players that can't put you on a hand.

Re: Is the squeeze play getting overused now?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are probably right, it does become + EV at a much lower confidence than 95%. However, my point is, if I'm putting all my chips in the middle on a squeeze play, I want to be highly confident it's going to work.

Of course, I used it last night in a low buy in tourny on Stars, made the proper reads...and got called by the original caller with 77. Can't put moves on players that can't put you on a hand.

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Its not just low buyins. At any online MTT you are at great risk if you make any kind of move like a squeeze play, inflection point all-ins, cooperation plays, or even surviving when on the bubble.

Standard play is call with Ax or any two suited, there is little understanding of not risking the tournament on a draw or big stack vs big stack confrontations.

Unless you know another player well and have seen him lay down a decent pre-flop hand your only hope is that no one after you has anything to call with. If not, you'll be racing from behind more often than not.