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- - A9s 4 handed (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=383821)

I've presented two possible "results" of the same hand here. One of these two really happened, but I want to know what everyone thinks I should have done, mainly on the turn. Flop and river crap is definitely up for debate, as well (I think everything but preflop is questionable here). Which one was played better, or are there different mistakes in each making them both equally good or bad?

BB in this hand is 52/6/0.8 after 35 hands. I 3-tabled tonight (reads were harder to get), so my only note on the guy was:

"called QJ on AKK4 flop/turn in pos in tiny hu pot."

SB is very unknown. After 25 hands he is 38/0/2. Sorry folks but that is all [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Option 1--------------------------------------------
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, SB folds, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.
-----------------------------------------------------

Option 2--------------------------------------------
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 4 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.
-----------------------------------------------------

Re: A9s 4 handed

I think I like hand 1 the best.

Re: A9s 4 handed

Option 1 I make a crying call on the end. Good hand otherwise. Getting 12.5:1 with top pair, we'd have to be good occasionally, right?

Option 2: I raise the turn again.

I don't think I overcall on the river when the SB wakes up AGAIN when the flush/straight card hits. Here you are getting only 10.5:1 and have to beat two hands.

Re: A9s 4 handed

[ QUOTE ]
Option 2: I raise the turn again.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol i gave this option as an option - for you to tell me what you think about just calling the turn, and in this option, overcalling that river.

Re: A9s 4 handed

I favor hand one. I don't like calling the turn bet in hand 2. BTW, did you think about a raise on the flop? I'm not sure about it, but I'm thinking I might like it.

-Jaran

Re: A9s 4 handed

I think this is a pretty cool way to post a hand and I like that we don't know which way it went.

Originally I liked Hand 2 better, but I was thinking that you can't overcall the river. The problem with that is the BB seems bad, and might call the river with a lot of hands. The SB's actions are really confusing to me too, but I still don't like the overcall.

I don't like raising the turn because you have to call the 3-bet, and there's a chance you were reverse dominated on the flop.

So yeah, I like Hand 2 if you don't overcall.

Re: A9s 4 handed

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like calling the turn bet in hand 2.

[/ QUOTE ]
can you expand on this? maybe in terms of their hand ranges and whether or not i should want to spend some bucks here to protect?

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, did you think about a raise on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah i did. i took about all the time to decide and ended up just calling.

Re: A9s 4 handed

The reason I don't like just calling here is it gives sb the odds to draw to two pr. I think his most likely holdings are 9T/TJ, possibly 8T. BB's bet most likely indicates an A. You didn't really say how aggressive he is with 3bets, but I think it likely he would 3bet pf AJ+ (this could be a fallacious assumption). He could also be semi-bluffing [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]'s. Either one, I want to raise it up. Once he 3bets, I of course would reevaluate and think I'm looking at at least 2pr (maybe A6,7). So, I like the river fold UI.

-Jaran

Re: A9s 4 handed

Warning: 6-max donkey grunch.

To be aggressive on the turn against a somewhat passive player or not pairing your A. I think that the second one is better. Personally, I may have played the hand like first since I'm new to 6-max and have been pressing the pedel too hard on more than one occasion.

If BB had lead out on the flop, I'd raise the turn and play it like hand number 1. Combine that with his passivity.
It looks like he hit either a stronger A than you (i.e. better kicker) or perhaps a raggedy 2 pair. But depending on BB's per street aggression tendencies, he may like to pop on the turn w/ sets (or maybe 2 pair). Unfortunately, 35 hands is a pretty small sample to determine how accurate these stats are. But if you've seen him pop once or twice, I would think that this would increase your confidence in this greatly.

It sems that hand number 2 has higher EV than the second in the long run.

Also, I think the other streets as they were played are fine. On hand number 1, it looks like you are behind and you didn't improve on the river. The second hand, a call down is fine.

Re: A9s 4 handed

what about raising the flop? we have the gutshot, at least 1 overcard, and the BDFD.

Re: A9s 4 handed

I dont like the overcall in hand 2. Sb woke up again and he wouldnt do that with anything you beat. I probably play it like hand 1 but I might call the river too. I dont really like folding TP vs unknowns.

Re: A9s 4 handed

If you weren't to overcall the river in hand 2, I'd like them both. For different reasons.

Hand 1.
I generally stick to the rule
"If I think I have the bettor beat - raise"
BB being the donk he is I think this is a reasonable assumption. The reasonably passive donk then tells you in no uncertain terms you are behind.
Even if he's stupid enough to semibluff 3bet, there's not too many draws that didn't come in with that river card.
I say NH.

Hand 2.
The only reason to check this, is if you thought you were reverse dominated or behind the BB and wanted to see the river cheaply and have SB pad the pot if you did improve.
The river comes, you didn't improve, a couple of draws come in, the SB bets, the BB calls.....no need to call.

If you hadn't overcalled Hand 2., I still think I prefer hand 1.
I think we're ahead of BB more often than we're behind and letting SB draw cheaply if we are ahead blows.

Re: A9s 4 handed

[ QUOTE ]
what about raising the flop? we have the gutshot, at least 1 overcard, and the BDFD.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you raise the flop and BB still donks the Ace turn...can you still raise? If yes, I like the flop raise.

I think it's one of those situations where I would wish my overcard wasn't an Ace. I'd somehow feel more comfortable raising the flop with K9s [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: A9s 4 handed

I like calling the turn. The pot isn't big enough to protect from a 4/5 outer that SB looks to be drawing to, and you have no clue where you stand with BB, but I'd say you're beaten a good amount when a .8 AF bets into the PFR on the turn.
I'm not sure how I feel about the river. The overcall isn't terrible because SB might just be pulling a "Oh hell, I'll just bet instead of check/call" and you'd think he'd C/R with a great hand. But these river donks are never bluffs in multi-way pots. I dunno, I don't think it matters much.

Re: A9s 4 handed

I think the flop is close between raise and call. You don't have the equity to raise your seven outer on the flop but on the flip side the pot is big and i hate the thought of just calling and folding the turn UI or making a slim call if there is 7.5 bb in the pot. As played i like hand 1 better for the reasons Jaron gave.

Re: A9s 4 handed

I raise the flop, expecting to get a free card. SB is most likely betting a pair on this board, and I don't think I'd see a 3-bet often.

That being said, I like Hand 2 better. SB will be getting 7:1, not quite enough to profitably call to draw to 2-pair or a set. BB's play is representing an Ace. He could have us outkicked, have two pair, or have something like A3. SB is representing a flopped pair, possibly rivered two-pair. Getting 10 to 1, I have no problem overcalling the river. I think we're ahead of each about 1/3 of the time.

Re: A9s 4 handed

i feel i should have done this earlier - a poll:

Re: A9s 4 handed

I'm not sure about the river overcall, but it seems like option 2 is better as far as the turn goes. My reasoning is that BB seems to have an Ace, so you're either way ahead or way behind him. If you're ahead, you don't mind him betting in to you again on the river, and you might make up the extra bet you lose not raising from the SB. If you're behind, you're only asking for trouble by raising. Meanwhile, SB looks to be on a draw. If he is drawing to 2 pair/trips, he has five outs, and you can offer him 7.5:1 by just calling. This is insufficient odds to call, so there is no need to raise to protect. If SB is on a flush draw or has a pair + straight draw, you'll be offering 8.5:2 immediate by raising, but 9.5:2 including BB's call. This gives him sufficient odds to call with a strong draw anyway, so raising probably won't protect your hand either way here.

Re: A9s 4 handed

either way you should be raising the flop.