big pot, double belly, cold call
 

Another full-ring that got short.

Button is 35.5/0/.17 (13 hands)
SB is 44/0/1
BB has sat 5 hands, and played most of them.

Me likey pot.


FullTilt 0.25/0.50 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12.00 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero ???

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

Easy call. I see no reason to raise at this point if that is your question.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

Am I the only one who 3-bets this on the flop?

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

I don't think I would here. We don't have enough opponents to make a raise for value, and with a bet and raise in front, the chances of us getting a free card are significantly reduced. I like the call.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Another full-ring that got short.

Button is 35.5/0/.17 (13 hands)
SB is 44/0/1
BB has sat 5 hands, and played most of them.

Me likey pot.


FullTilt 0.25/0.50 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12.00 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

My read is that villian has a high pocket pair and is trying to protect it against a possible straight. Raising to see if someone has a 7 etc.

So each of your gutshots gives you 4 outs (full since the read is high pocket pair)
The RR flush draw is 1.5 outs by the river.

You have 9.5 outs so this is at least a call if not a raise. A raise here may scare off mr big pocket pair but also might drive off villian #2 who could also be working on one of your draws.

I would call and reevaluate the pot odds on the turn. Most likely it will be checked to the raiser who will bet. The size of the pot will justify a call of 1BB to the river even if you miss on the turn. fold the river unimproved. Raise like crazy if you hit your straigt or flush.

Greg

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

I'm just basing my decision on the outs that you have and the size of the pot. You've got 2 overcards (3 outs) bdoor flush (1.5 outs) and gutshot (4 outs). 3+1.5+4=8.5 outs so you're getting 7.5 to one with 8.5 outs so you have to call. Even if you fear a reraise you'd still be getting 6 to one (a cap you'd get 5 to one) so you should call. With 8.5 outs here I think you've got about 34% pot equity (8.5 X 4) please correct me if I'm wrong. That would make me say that you should reraise.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

BTW I dont like your position for the preflop raise of QJs. I know that its marginal since there are only 6 players but I still think I would be limping this more than raising it.

Greg

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just basing my decision on the outs that you have and the size of the pot. You've got 2 overcards (3 outs) bdoor flush (1.5 outs) and gutshot (4 outs). 3+1.5+4=8.5 outs so you're getting 7.5 to one with 8.5 outs so you have to call. Even if you fear a reraise you'd still be getting 6 to one (a cap you'd get 5 to one) so you should call. With 8.5 outs here I think you've got about 34% pot equity (8.5 X 4) please correct me if I'm wrong. That would make me say that you should reraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think that his over cards are outs since I would put villin on AA-QQ a large portion of the time. Plus it is possible that villian had a pocket pair and hit trips. The only real outs to a raised flop seem to me to be the straight (double gutshot so 8 outs not four) and the flush.

Greg

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

Disregarding your overcards completely, you have ~9 outs (four 7s, four Js, and a BDFD). Even when you consider that a seven will only give you a one-card straight, your BDFD is not to the nut flush, and SB may 3-bet... this is still an easy call.

You don't have the equity to raise though, if that's your question.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

At what appears to be a 5 handed table, raising QTs in the CO is standard. Open-limping in the CO is almost always terrible no matter how many are sitting at the table. The only exception is if the players behind you will play always call you with any two cards. In that case, you can consider limping, forfeiting a small edge preflop for what may be a larger one postflop. Even then, you should feel dirty doing it.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

[ QUOTE ]
BTW I dont like your position for the preflop raise of QJs. I know that its marginal since there are only 6 players but I still think I would be limping this more than raising it.

Greg

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an error in my history. There were two folds to me. I've got QTs. This was a steal attempt at best, and I was trying to buy the button.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

I would 3-bet.

Lets say that you have about 8.5 outs for your OC's, gut-shot and BDFD. Edit: I missed the double gut-shot, so you have about 12.5 outs. Even more reason to reraise.

The pot is big enough to justify continuing in the hand. I would reraise to try to drive out the button. Also raising might buy you a free card on the turn if you need one.

Raising might also improve your chances of winning if you pair either of your hole cards, if it causes anyone who shares one of your cards with a better kicker to fold.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

How do we not have equity to raise with 9 outs on the turn? I guess you base that on the fact that SB may fold if you raise?

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

Fuh, your raise is standard in a shorthanded situtation. QTs is more than enough of a hand to open in the CO.

Am I the only one thinking of 3-betting in this situtation? The two most likely outcomes are either your 3-bet slows people down enough to take a free card on the turn (if you so choose), or that the SB and BB are looking to stack off and the flop is getting capped anyway. You lose only if the BB has a hand he is willing to cap and the SB is not willing to 3-bet his hand now.

The 3-bet may be -EV in terms of pure value, as I am putting Hero's hand at roughly 10.5 outs -- 7 for the double gutter [a 7 puts four to a straight on the board, making it likely to chop and killing any other action], 1.5 for the BDFD, 1.5 for your Q outs, and .5 outs for your T (as that puts 4 to a gutshot on the board, while leaving lots of overs drawing live). However, the fact that hero has position plus any initative/free card benefits he may gain should tip the scale ever so slightly the other way.

-K

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

Fixed the hand history. I'm putting BB on big cards or maybe a mid-big pair. Again, haven't seen him play. I don't like my overcard outs really. Maybe SB has top pair or two pair. I just called this one.


Should I put a value bet on this turn (after button's donk)?

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12.00 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10.00 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero ???.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

[ QUOTE ]

There is an error in my history. There were two folds to me. I've got QTs. This was a steal attempt at best, and I was trying to buy the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have "at best" a steal attempt. You have a good hand that has a likely equity edge at a five handed table in the CO. You would raise AA there, right? Of course you would. QTs certainly doesn't have the equity edge that AA does, but it's edge is nonetheless real.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fixed the hand history. I'm putting BB on big cards or maybe a mid-big pair. Again, haven't seen him play. I don't like my overcard outs really. Maybe SB has top pair or two pair. I just called this one.


Should I put a value bet on this turn (after button's donk)?

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12.00 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10.00 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero ???.

[/ QUOTE ]

With the folds in front this is an easy raise pf. I dont like that you still have so many people calling in raises etc on the turn. After callign the bet you have to call the raise to see the river. The pot is huge.

Greg

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (10.00 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero ???.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really a question? You're getting 17:1 and closing the action. You could call a lone gutshot, here. If you're asking should you raise, I see no reason to reopen the betting.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

There is an error in my history. There were two folds to me. I've got QTs. This was a steal attempt at best, and I was trying to buy the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have "at best" a steal attempt. You have a good hand that has a likely equity edge at a five handed table in the CO. You would raise AA there, right? Of course you would. QTs certainly doesn't have the equity edge that AA does, but it's edge is nonetheless real.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's a good hand. It's 6-handed. I'm guessing I throw it away if MP bets? Again, I'm not used to short-handed, but I try to refer to this SH chart if I have enough time (I understand it--just haven't memorized it)

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (10.00 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, Hero ???.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this really a question? You're getting 17:1 and closing the action. You could call a lone gutshot, here. If you're asking should you raise, I see no reason to reopen the betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hayell no, I'm not leaving. I'm asking to raise. If there were 5 in, with my 8 double-gut outs, should I be pumping this for pot equity?

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

I'm not sure what the question on the turn is. You can't fold and based on the action your overcards are not good. So you do not have an equity edge here (even if you did I would probably still call unless you had a monster draw).

Let's estimate that you have 8/46 cards that give you the win. So you have &lt;25% equity in this spot and you're putting in 25% of the bets.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

Could someone clear this up for me? In another post I was told that to find your pot equity on the flop you multipy the number of outs by 4 to get a rough number. Here you have 8 outs so 8 X 4 is 32%? Why does istewart say you have less than 25%?

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

That would be around your pot equity on the flop. I'm talking about on the turn though.

Re: big pot, double belly, cold call
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do we not have equity to raise with 9 outs on the turn? I guess you base that on the fact that SB may fold if you raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was holding A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on a T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flop, then I would 3-bet. But since our equity edge is thin on the flop (for reasons I previously stated), and we lose equity if a spade doesn't fall on the turn, and a 3-bet might push out the SB, I think I would only call the flop.

To the OP: as far as the turn goes, you have 8 outs or 17% equity. Since each bet you put in accounts for 25% of the pot, you don't have the equity edge to raise the turn.

Edited to add: you don't even have the equity to raise if there were five people in it, and I don't even think I'd do it with 6 players because there's no guarantee everybody would call the raise.