$109s - JJ Hand
 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter

BB (t1000)
UTG (t950)
UTG+1 (t985)
MP1 (t950)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t2140)
Hero (t1000)
Button (t990)
SB (t985)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t50</font>, Hero calls t50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls t35, UTG+1 calls t35.

Flop: (t210) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t90</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls t90, BB folds.

Turn: (t390) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t150</font>, Hero ?

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I hate JJ. Well, sometimes...

I have no advice to give here, this is a tough spot. Do you have any table reads? Does villain have the ability to lead with a flush draw on the flop?

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

Unfortunately, I'd never seen VIllain before.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

since you just called him preflop, you have to raise this flop to find out where you are. half the deck is a turn scarecard and it's ridiculously weak/tight to fold to his bet on the turn.
a small flop raise to, say, 250, isnt really committing you but helps a lot more than calling him on the flop and turn, having another under hit the river and watching him push.

as it is, i think i just call on the turn and reevaluate on the river. although i dont hate minraising to get a cheap showdown.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

Hero raises to 300 on the flop to prevent seeing a turn with a diamond, or to induce a mistake from the villain.

But we got to the turn... only options I see are fold or push. Since we are at the start of the tournament, discretion says fold and live to fight another day. After all it's only a pair...

But, those probe bets smell funny to me. I might just push instead. You might even force him off of a weak flush.

- w

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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But we got to the turn... only options I see are fold or push. Since we are at the start of the tournament, discretion says fold and live to fight another day. After all it's only a pair...

But, those probe bets smell funny to me. I might just push instead. You might even force him off of a weak flush.

- w

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yes we all know how often people raise from EP with suited connectors, make a flush and then fold to a raise.
this is not in any way a push or fold situation. hero still have over 800 chips left when the action reaches him on the turn and theres only 400 in the pot.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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yes we all know how often people raise from EP with suited connectors, make a flush and then fold to a raise.
this is not in any way a push or fold situation. hero still have over 800 chips left when the action reaches him on the turn and theres only 400 in the pot.

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I'm pretty sure I can beat PF raiser. However, he folded on the flop so its not all that relevent.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

why not raise from late position w/ JJ pre-flop?

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

my mistake, read your post quickly and assumed UTG+1 was the pfr. ugh, that makes the turn a lot trickier. really this all goes back to the fact that you should raise on the flop. as it is, you have no idea if he flopped a set, a flush draw, weakly played tens that 2 outed you on the turn, 98, or something else entirely. cant see much you're beating here, but it's hard to know since you didnt raise the flop. im repeating myself because every time i think about the hand that's what springs to mind.

against an unknown, i think you have to at least call on the turn here.(...and pray for a diamond river and a check.)
still dont hate the minraise, check behind, seems like your cheapest way of seeing a showdown. fold if reraised or if he calls and pushes the river.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I would actually min-raise here. I think it will shut villain down almost always if he does not have the flush and get you a cheap showdown. If he keeps coming at you, you can be very certain that he has the flush and you can get away from the hand with a weaker, but playable stack.

Calling will invite villain to bet the river again (probably for more than 150 -- the cost of a min-raise) even if he doesn't have the flush, and folding an overpair in a pot this size isn't a great option imo.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

Without reads, I will usually call the turn and fold to a river bet.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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I would actually min-raise here. I think it will shut villain down almost always if he does not have the flush and get you a cheap showdown. If he keeps coming at you, you can be very certain that he has the flush and you can get away from the hand with a weaker, but playable stack.

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That's pretty much what I was thinking.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I raise the flop to see if I'm behind QQ-AA or AK-Aq.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I would have raised preflop and on the flop, but...

At the turn, unless he was a known tricky player, I would say to myself, "self, he either leads out on the draw or leads out when he hits, but he doesn't lead out when he draws and when he hits" and I'd probably go for one of those calling him down and letting him continue to bluff plays.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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"self, he either leads out on the draw or leads out when he hits, but he doesn't lead out when he draws and when he hits"

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why would you think that? why would you rule out the semi-bluff followed by a continuation/value bet when the draw hits?

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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Without reads, I will usually call the turn and fold to a river bet.

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I agree with this line unless the river bet is ridiculously small.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I can't understand how you could fail to raise the flop [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
You're very likely to have the best hand, but you are at the same time very vulnerable. By calling you put yourself in a crappy situation on the turn, as there are a lot of scary cards that can come up.

Since the villain is betting again and the flush draw, which is a very likely hand for villain, completed, I doubt that you're ahead on the turn. There aren't many hands that you beat that would reasonably play like this. AQo or AKo with one diamond, the other jacks and nines... Anything else? You do have some odds for your flush draw if villains is on an overpair or a set, but I don't think they're good enough since they can easily already have a bigger flush, or a bigger draw. I think you should fold. I think villain has very rarely something like AT or A8, which you beat, here.

Of course raising is an option which might sometimes make villain fold a better non-flush hand, but that's a lot more variance in terms of chips and I doubt that can be that much more +CEV than folding, if at all.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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At the turn, unless he was a known tricky player, I would say to myself, "self, he either leads out on the draw or leads out when he hits, but he doesn't lead out when he draws and when he hits" and I'd probably go for one of those calling him down and letting him continue to bluff plays.

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This is a good point.. Really got me thinking. I suck at postflop play as I'm just a sit'n'go bot. Do you play your draws like that? I feel like it's too likely for villain to happily check behind on the turn if you don't bet. But at the 109's people probably are more aggressive, and I guess they should bet the turn often after being checked to. And letting them see the river with your nut flush isn't that bad. Fascinating [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

This is really a difficult hand.
I like the nice idea of the min-raise (I never do that)
Else, if you call, the guy should put you an a flush.
And if himself doesn't have the flush, he should check the river.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I wouldn't rule it out. I would just bet against it. That's another reason for just calling him down though at this point because he probably won't try and stack you when he has the nuts.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

hand becomes a billion times easier if u raise the flop, i dont fold this on the turn and i dont fold to a river blank if he pushes.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I'm not so sure about what I said. He could also bet 150 at the river to test your flush draw or to value his own flush.
So I'm confused, but the call is my line here

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

yeah i agree with microbet i think jj is def ahead of villians range of hands.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I can't see folding on the turn with an overpair and a flush draw. I don't think min raising will give us much info about our hand. I call the turn bet and then it could get interesting because if we make the jack high flush it could be good against a flopped set.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

Raise the flop

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I think you had the best hand on the flop for sure and should've raised then, but may be in trouble on the turn.

I wanna say call or minraise this, then shut down on any river. Trouble is, both draws got there and it looks like he either wants you to raise or hates the diamond but likes his hand enough to blocking bet.

I think you have to minraise, but I think it's a semibluff at best at this point very very often and you should've raised the flop.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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I think you had the best hand on the flop for sure and should've raised then, but may be in trouble on the turn.

I wanna say call or minraise this, then shut down on any river. Trouble is, both draws got there and it looks like he either wants you to raise or hates the diamond but likes his hand enough to blocking bet.

I think you have to minraise, but I think it's a semibluff at best at this point very very often and you should've raised the flop.

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I like the blocking bet theory, except that I don't know what it means we should do. He could blocking bet a set or 2 pair here after two draws complete--but maybe he's capable of doing it with AT--and tough to think what he'd fold if we play back. I think I fold entirely because it's early--dunno how I'd play this in a cash game though, other than raising the flop.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

Alright well here were my thoughts during the hand:

UTG+1 has limped, called a raise, and now leads for slightly less than half pot into 3 opponents, one of which is the PF raiser. I put him on:

- 99/TT on a probe bet (12 ways)
- 22/66/88 (9 ways)
- Ax diamonds (say 4-7 ways if we remove AK/AQ)
- A8o (I really don't view this as likely without a read)

Anyway, he's leading into the field so he has to assume he's going to get popped back a good % of the time. Given this, why is he leading? Do most probe bettors do this into 3 opponents? If I was him making that bet I have Ax diamonds or a set 100% of the time and if I get popped back all my chips are going in the middle with either hand.

To those that want to raise, are we calling a push? I don't really like that given we're either already crushed by a set or flipping vs Ax diamonds (ahead of AT, but behind the combo draw Axs) Is a push just so unlikely here that I shouldn't be worried about it?

Anyway, I didn't want to call a push, and I wouldn't mind seeing what BB is up to (probably nothing but he wouldn't bet a hand out of the blinds anyway so who knows) so I decide to flat call and use my position to control the hand.

Note: I'm not loving this situation one bit and will happily release my jacks at any point if I feel I'm crushed.

Turn is the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and UTG+1 leads for 150. I am now ahead of 99, and possibly A8. The only hand I beat here that I can see leading out is Ad8o. 99 and A8o just check it to me, as I can't see them liking their hand enough to lead out. So, I'm beat... what now?

Well, I'm pretty sure he has me, so I'm not real interested in getting to a cheap showdown. If I'm going to continue with this hand I want to find out if he has the flush, and if he doesn't I want to put him to a decision on the river. I really like the min-raise idea, but if he checks the river I'm not checking behind only to be shown a set. So I like the min-raise, push river if checked to, fold if bet into line. I *think* flat calling the turn and betting the river is superior because it costs less and is probably nearly as scary. Also, flat calling the turn shows no aggression and virtually eliminates the chances of me being C/R'd on the river if he boats up.

Anyway, I folded because attempting to move random 109ers off sets isn't something I'm in the habit of doing. I think I agree with everyone that I should have raised the flop, it still just doesn't sit all that well with me for some reason.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

Your anlaysis is very deep.

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Anyway, he's leading into the field so he has to assume he's going to get popped back a good % of the time. Given this, why is he leading? Do most probe bettors do this into 3 opponents? If I was him making that bet I have Ax diamonds or a set 100% of the time

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These are my thoughts. But you have taken the rest to another level for me. Thanks for sharing.

The thing that got you (and me) here is that raising the flop gives you enough information - right? I don't like freemoneys approach of calling down. I'd rather invest the money on the flop.

One last thing. Is there any possibility these donkeys can play 97s (or 86s)?

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

i clearly made it very obvious raising the flop was best.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

No one has yet to really explain why you raise the flop. I personally think that if you wait until the turn to put in a small raise you are likely better off because hands that are behind you are more likely not to come over the top of you (IE a draw).

This, "raise for information" thing seems a little overused and many people say it because they cant really justify their actions. Raising the flop is also tricky when you get called because you cant guarantee a cheap showdown and may be looking at a big pot. Calling keeps the pot smaller and you have more wiggle room and can exercise more pot control.

I think if you arent going to raise the turn a little bit, I like heros line. It takes a lot of discipline that I dont always have, but it looks good. Just be careful not to outthink yourself too much... I mean you do have an overpair and you are playing some players who will make a big pot with much worse hands than yours.

-Jason

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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No one has yet to really explain why you raise the flop. I personally think that if you wait until the turn to put in a small raise you are likely better off because hands that are behind you are more likely not to come over the top of you (IE a draw).

This, "raise for information" thing seems a little overused and many people say it because they cant really justify their actions. Raising the flop is also tricky when you get called because you cant guarantee a cheap showdown and may be looking at a big pot. Calling keeps the pot smaller and you have more wiggle room and can exercise more pot control.

I think if you arent going to raise the turn a little bit, I like heros line. It takes a lot of discipline that I dont always have, but it looks good. Just be careful not to outthink yourself too much... I mean you do have an overpair and you are playing some players who will make a big pot with much worse hands than yours.

-Jason

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I dont think a raise on the flop here is "for information".

For me, any info I might obtain by taking control of the hand (raising here) is a byproduct of having what I believe to be the best hand and pricing what I percieve to be a possible draw.

If I think I am ahead here most of the time, (and I am) I want to make the pot bigger.

As far as the rest of Hero's line, a raise on the flop can buy you a check behind on the turn if you dont like it. But honestly, a flop with so many in the pot and a bet doesnt mean its a flush draw as everyone here thinks.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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a raise on the flop can buy you a check behind on the turn if you dont like it.

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it might also buy you a return push on the flop, which was one of Unarmed's reasons for not doing it.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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No one has yet to really explain why you raise the flop. I personally think that if you wait until the turn to put in a small raise you are likely better off because hands that are behind you are more likely not to come over the top of you (IE a draw).

This, "raise for information" thing seems a little overused and many people say it because they cant really justify their actions. Raising the flop is also tricky when you get called because you cant guarantee a cheap showdown and may be looking at a big pot. Calling keeps the pot smaller and you have more wiggle room and can exercise more pot control.

I think if you arent going to raise the turn a little bit, I like heros line. It takes a lot of discipline that I dont always have, but it looks good. Just be careful not to outthink yourself too much... I mean you do have an overpair and you are playing some players who will make a big pot with much worse hands than yours.

-Jason

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Im not raising the flop for information. Im prepared to call if our opponent moves allin on us.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

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a raise on the flop can buy you a check behind on the turn if you dont like it.

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it might also buy you a return push on the flop, which was one of Unarmed's reasons for not doing it.

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I understand that. How often will a draw push here, and how often will a set? DOnt think you're up against the straight AND flush draws so if it is a draw, a call is correct especially after having raised. Do you think a set bets 90? Why is calling a push reraise/push wrong when you're a 60%+ favorite?

I just dont see playing JJ this way to be profitable in t or $...isnt that the bottom line?

Actually, after more thought it is quite simple...Playing this type of hand more agressively will win you more $ overall i believe, but will also lead to some early exits. Higher risk, higher $.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

yeah what hands will villian show that are ahead of hero other than a set, him pushing here is fine, you have an overpair its a SnG, you usually shouldnt fold em.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

I agree. Raise, call a push.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 has limped, called a raise, and now leads for slightly less than half pot into 3 opponents, one of which is the PF raiser. I put him on:

- 99/TT on a probe bet (12 ways)
- 22/66/88 (9 ways)
- Ax diamonds (say 4-7 ways if we remove AK/AQ)
- A8o (I really don't view this as likely without a read)

Anyway, he's leading into the field so he has to assume he's going to get popped back a good % of the time. Given this, why is he leading? Do most probe bettors do this into 3 opponents? If I was him making that bet I have Ax diamonds or a set 100% of the time and if I get popped back all my chips are going in the middle with either hand.


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These were my thoughts as well, however I can't really see villian making this probe bet with a set. I think someone with a set will either check looking for a check raise (a very viable option since the preflop agressor is still to act), or lead out with a larger bet, closer to 3/4 pot. If villan is leading out 99/TT I think his bet is justifies but also a little weak. Why would he be betting so little knowing that he's likely to get called in at least one spot, maybe two, and there's is still a chance that the preflop raiser might reraise.

I haven't played the 109s yet but I would think the majority of the players there have some notion of postflop strategy and thus, have some type of plan and thought process, right or wrong, for their play. So, given this, the villian must be aware that's he's probably not going to be taking this pot down right now and is willing to see another card off. I think this makes the Ax flush draw likely (and maybe KQs for all we know). I think the chances you are ahead on the flop are pretty high, as well as the chances of villian repopping it if we raise so I don't mind calling the flop with the intention of betting the turn if a non flush card or ace comes. But when the flush comes and he leads out into you again I like laying it down.

Re: $109s - JJ Hand
 

My opinion is that you played the hand very well up until the turn.

I imagine that you folded the turn, which is good, since you were beat.

His betting pattern is not consistent with a hand that your Jacks are ahead of.

Irieguy

PS- I don't mind Adanthar's idea of min-raising the turn either... but i'd probably just pass on the hand. I really don't like opponent's turn bet. If I knew that he was capable of moving in that fashion, I'd raise for sure; but against an standard donkey you are in bad shape.

Fold and wait for better opportunity
 

i'd fold. I often bet into a player in this situation with a made hand that isn't the nuts. If I have Q high flush. I still bet because I'm afraid that my opponent could be sitting on an unmade A of diamond. If they put me in, then I call. But I don't give a free card.

So my guess is that you're beat. But if you're not beat then there's a good chance that you'll be very soon. Your hand is marginal and any raise will require you to committ half your stack. Are you ready to do that with a marginal hand?

I'd fold and wait for a better opportunity. While making sure to pay attention to that player the next time they bet twice into a player that called on the flop.